• 17 Nov

  Women and changing roles

  17, Nov, 2011 (2:56 PM)

  A new report released today shows that working mums are the most time-poor people in the nation.
  
  The AMP National Centre for Social Economic Modelling report found Australian women are spending on average two hours more each day than men on housework, child care and purchasing goods and services.
  
  Men spend almost the equivalent extra time on employment-related activities as well as an extra half hour per day on recreational and leisure pursuits.
  
  It found traditional gender roles were still relevant in the modern day.
  
  Has much changed?
  
  Do you think your daughters and granddaughter’s generations have it easier or harder than you did?
  
  Are there more or less expectations on women nowadays to “do it all”?
  
  Why or why not?
  
  

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  Disclaimer: The views expressed in these blogs are not necessarily those of National Seniors Australia. This blog is moderated and any content deemed inappropriate by the administrator will be removed, including comments that are offensive or discriminatory; libellous or defamatory; breach copyright, unless we have the owner’s permission to use it; or contain personal or commercially confidential material. Personal attacks will be deleted by the moderator. The use of this blog to broadcast overtly party-political messages is also prohibited. The moderator’s decision is final and no correspondence will be entered into. Any personal details shared here are public and can be found on internet searches.
  

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  This blog is now closed.

Comments (308)

1. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (14:14)

   Helen
   
   Tony Abbott was out-manoeuvred, that's for sure. But you are quite wrong about the 'dummy spit'. It might appear stupid to get the Speaker off-side, but this is just the end game of a long alienation process. As I said, there is a whole history behind this move. It involves the Qld LNP, Mal Brough, Kevin Rudd and several enquiries into misuse of allowances etc. No love lost between Peter Slipper and Liberal party at this stage, anyway. Jumped before he was pushed, so as to speak.

2. Helen - 24, November, 2011 (14:14)

   Contd -I have faith that the rain is coming up your way (if there's any left. 100ml is a lot in a couple of days. The up side is that the tank is full & the garden & the weeds have loved it. I wish I could find the off switch for the grass. Perhaps L might have advice on this as well on one of her links...

3. Helen - 24, November, 2011 (14:10)

   Robyn
   SOL sometimes writes in a similar manner. I liked it better when we were called Pagans & Communists though. I haven't heard this for a while.
   Seems strange that L has problems on other blogs. Are we all wrong, hmmmm!
   
   L if you don't like it here, it's a free, democratic C/Try & you can move on to yet another blog.
   
   We can too, but I kind of like it here. I had a terrible morning this morning & decided I would stay home today.
   
   I was a bit worried that if I went out in the rain, something would happen for sure. Haven't had a day like that for a while. It seems to have got better. My other self said "don't go out, don't go out", so I didn't!
   There's always tomorrow & it has to be better, besides plenty to do here.
   
   

4. helen - 24, November, 2011 (13:57)

   Just had to come back! What a dummy spit by Abbott. It completes a perfect year of stupidity from the shadow leader & seals a successful year end for the gov under incredible conditions.
   
   If Abbott lasts into next year, he will have to be very lucky. When did the Libs (whom I used to support) become so dictatorial? HE has decreed that the new speaker must resign from his party. Again he shot himself in the foot with his mouth & had created an independent enemy for the future!...
   
   
   
   

5. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (13:50)

   Oooh, shucks, Robyn. If I ever achieve the accolade of the highest life form of the lowest life forms I shall try to be humble and not let it go to my head!
   
   Looking forward to the next blog!

6. Robyn - 24, November, 2011 (13:43)

   Nearly time for the blog to close and I am still waiting for answers to my questions to WEG and SoL. Looks like they won't be forthcoming.
   
   Helen, I don't know how you formed the opinion that SoL is L. Can you please explain why you think this? I am not of the same mind. Like others though, I can't work him out.
   
   Kay, I think you may have usurped me as the highest life form of the lowest life forms. There is great prestige attached to this position so I do hope you are up for such celebrity. The men, no matter how hard they try, just can't seem to make the grade. Lorikeet does give us some enjoyment in her own inimitable way so I am glad she is part of the action.
   
   Wonder what the new topic will be?

7. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (13:03)

   ETS
   
   I have been watching Channel 24 - the election of Speaker and Deputy Speaker. What a hoot!
   
   The opposition did their best in an impossible situation! It was a great laugh for the entire House! Harry Jenkins was a great Speaker - no comment on his successor!

8. Lorikeet - 24, November, 2011 (12:59)

   I think Labor has withdrawn Harry Jenkins from the Speaker's role because they need him to combat attempts to derail the government and bring on a a fresh federal election, which is very badly needed.
   
   Other than that, the continuing bullying claptrap from the usual enclave isn't worth answering.
   
   Shame on you all!

9. ETS - 24, November, 2011 (12:44)

   Kay, don't worry about the colour, the list was never exclusively green. All colours were there - it had a pleasant rainbow feel to it.
   
   How about it Lorikeet, care to give us the list again?
   
   It's almost Question Time. Should be a good end of year atmosphere today.
   
   

10. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (11:59)

    Helen
    
    I'm afraid you are right. The resignation of Harry Jenkins as Speaker has certainly 'snookered' poor Tony Abbott. For once, a very clever political manoeuvre by the ALP!
    
    I think Harry Jenkins was an excellent Speaker. Perhaps I had better be cautious re my views on Peter Slipper. Definitely 'on the nose' here in Qld for reasons other than purely political ones!

11. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (11:39)

    ETS
    
    Good idea! I would love to see the list of "low lifes". I am sure that I would be on the list now (although I am a newbie). I would be happy to be in the company of the rest of the "low lifes". Even though I am not as Green!

12. ETS - 24, November, 2011 (11:24)

    Laurakeet, you are a very charitable person; far more charitable than someone else would be if the positions were reversed. But OK, if it was just a one-off then let’s move on.
    
    I don’t know if SoL is really Lorikeet. Her other personas – Geoff, John and Claude – were all fairly transparent to the point where she even confused herself one time. SoL is less transparent as a persona, but maybe she is getting better at it. I suspect SoL is not her. I’m just not sure yet whether he is taking the mickey or is serious. I hope it is the first.
    
    Kay, some months back one of the personas had a weekly list of low life forms. From memory Robyn was usually at the top of the list despite the strong competition. Since today is Crazy Thursday maybe we could call on Lorikeet to revise the list just to keep us informed.
    
    

13. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (11:05)

    Laurakeet
    
    I agree with your speculations about SoL. I think his comments are just 'tongue in cheek'. And I, for one, quite enjoy them.

14. Laurakeet - 24, November, 2011 (10:57)

    ETS and Bob, I agree Lorikeet’s linkage of the two points was wrong but perhaps in her sadness she was not thinking clearly about it. Let’s give her the benefit of the doubt on that one.
    
    I don’t know if she and her son are really one and the same. I still think he is taking the mickey out of her but it could be a subtle ploy to stay in the limelight. Far too subtle for her I would have thought.
    

15. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (10:55)

    Ah, now we have it! Lorikeet actually admits she has tried to get the Moderator to ban some of us "low life" bloggers from the blog!!!
    
    In the kerfuffle we had a few weeks ago, I actually said Lorikeet should NOT be banned from the blog because that would be contrary to freedom of speech principles!
    
    And now for the ever popular 'victim' approach! I guess none of us have ever had bad medical news or lost someone we love? I think we all have and have kept it private.

16. Bob B - 24, November, 2011 (10:49)

    We are sorry for your grief, she was indeed a magnificent woman.
    
    But you linked those who challenge you to this not us - we simply point out the folly of doing so.

17. Lorikeet - 24, November, 2011 (10:39)

    The Moderator really needs to follow my advice and block some of the low life from this blog.
    
    They are among the nastiest, most negative, falsely accusative people I have ever encountered. Even when a person is grieving or given depressing medical advice, they form a collective to dig in their hobnail boots.
    
    I don't know who Son of Lorikeet is, any more than the rest of the people.

18. Bob B - 24, November, 2011 (10:36)

    Helen
    
    My 10:30 could have been beteer - here it is with missing words.
    
    She has done this before with easily seen through give aways. A little better this time but I don't see it quite as you do. She may well have picked up on the statements not directed to her but about her and responded anyway. I'm still not sure if SOL is acually her but time will tell. She is proven to be not good at concealing duality.
    
    To those who believe she emails NSA about this blog, I think she probably phones as that might produce a better outcome - wear away until you win!!!

19. Bob B - 24, November, 2011 (10:30)

    Helen
    
    She has this before with easy seen through give aways. A little better this time but I don't see it you do. She may well have picked up on the statements not directed to her but about her and responded anyway. I'm still not sure but time will tell.

20. Bob B - 24, November, 2011 (10:27)

    ETS
    
    You are right to point out that there is no real linkage between the death of the bone cancer woman with those who disagree with Lorikeet. To link the two is dispicable.

21. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (10:20)

    Helen
    
    Please send your rain to me! None as yet!
    
    Your theory the L and SoL are the same person is interesting. Any particular comment you can point out to support this?

22. ETS - 24, November, 2011 (10:16)

    Lorikeet, my sympathies go to the family and friends of the lady whose funeral is today, and to you as she was clearly someone you were close to and you are obviously upset by her passing.
    
    But it is a low blow and totally inappropriate to try to link an occasion for grief with people who criticise your comments on the blog. Totally inappropriate.
    

23. Helen - 24, November, 2011 (10:12)

    Guess what everyone! L & her son ARE THE SAME PERSON!
    
    I just read the comments & she has given herself away.
    
    Harry Jenkins stood down as Chairman today. He wants to be able to vote on bills etc & play a part in decision making. This gives Labour an extra vote. The Libs have a problem because the Speaker is now the deputy & if he takes the job on full time & the deputy ends up a lib. Labour will then have two extra votes. The Labour party don't have to put in a Lab person if they don't want to so I heard. This gives Abbott something else to worry about during the Xmas break.
    
    We have had 100ml of rain in the last couple of days. I would like to send the rain up north now if that's OK...

24. Lorikeet - 24, November, 2011 (10:01)

    I found this link posted on a Greens blog. The audio link is in Chinese, but there's a written version:
    
    http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/china-news/chinese-tv-host-says-regime-nearly-bankrupt-141214.html

25. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (9:59)

    Lorikeet
    
    And there still are a large number of contributors when the topic interests them, or is particularly relevant to seniors!!! Otherwise, they just don't bother.
    
    I do know of some who have quit because of you, though.

26. Lorikeet - 24, November, 2011 (9:54)

    This blog is not heavily censored at all.
    
    Before you newbies came along and started joining forces to alienate everyone, there were certainly more contributors to this blog.

27. Lorikeet - 24, November, 2011 (9:52)

    There is plenty of evidence available to those who actually read links that are posted here, including those on foreign debt.
    
    Asset sales and various public/private are also excellent clues as to who is increasingly owning us.
    
    For those who want to press on with their negative outlook, this morning a very nice woman who died of bone cancer is being buried. Last night I cried myself to sleep after I heard.
    
    I don't waste my time emailing the Moderator, no matter how many people want to make false accusations against me.

28. ETS - 24, November, 2011 (9:51)

    Well said Robyn and Kay. Agree completely.
    

29. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (9:47)

    (cont.)
    
    There is never any problem on the blog until Lorikeet decides to launch into one of her inflammatory, abusing or 'crazy' blogs (she does contribute many very worthwhile and acceptable blogs as well).
    
    No other blogs I have ever seen has this amount of extreme censorship. Robust debate, criticism of the contributions of other bloggers, and strong language are the norm. And after all, we are seniors who are quite capable of handling anything Lorikeet dishes out - and our comments about her certainly don't discourage her participation!

30. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (9:46)

    Moderator
    
    I endorse Robyn's comments to you.
    
    The rigid censoring that we have seen lately to protect Lorikeet is insulting and demeaning to seniors. We have a very interesting blog, with interesting characters, as Robyn has said. It is my observation that non-regulars are very happy to join the blog when the topic interests them. As for us regulars, we are not put off by a topic that is a bit 'light on' because other topics crop up that we enjoy debating.

31. Robyn - 24, November, 2011 (9:46)

    Son of Lorikeet,
    
    What do you and your mum expect us all to do in order to "save" ourselves?

32. Sue Do-Nim - 24, November, 2011 (9:45)

    Robyn - 24, November, 2011 (9:29)
    
    Spot on my dear.

33. ETS - 24, November, 2011 (9:33)

    Son of Lorikeet, if you are not satirising your mum then you paint a descriptive but gloomy picture of our future in some sort of post-apocalyptic Mad Max world. That might be appropriate given some of the unusual opinions sometimes attributed to Mel Gibson would not be out of place in the world you describe. Hope it doesn’t come to that, even on Crazy Thursday.
    
    A little bit of evidence to back up the dismal outlook would not go astray.
    
    The Speaker of the House of Representatives resigned this morning. He had a very tough job over the past year and a bit, not helped much by either side. I think he handled it with fairness, honesty and humour where he could but the constant bickering and sniping must have been intense.
    
    
    

34. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (9:30)

    Robyn
    
    Yes, a dilemma! Note how Lorikeet has not bothered to respond to any of the 'boots 'n all' comments by some of us this morning. She doesn't have to - she is either emailing the Moderator directly (as usual) or knows she can rely on the Moderator to do her work for her!

35. Robyn - 24, November, 2011 (9:29)

    Moderator,
    
    My concern with the rigid censoring is that it is over-controlling and is thus insulting to seniors. We have the blog we have, with the interesting characters we have, some choosing to talk a lot and others putting in their occasional bit. Why not leave us to it and let us all be ourselves providing we are not going over the top in abusive ways?

36. Robyn - 24, November, 2011 (9:19)

    There is a lot of energetic activity this morning. A pity that most of it will go. Lorikeet does appear to be moderating her responses so I guess we go from there. We do have the right to challenge each others views - this is a blog after all - and if Lorikeet receives more challenge than most that is because of the extremity and dominance of her views. Unfortunately response draws further response thus feeding her dominance of view. If response comes only from those who support her views and not from those who oppose, we end up with the same situation. It is a dilemma!
    
    

37. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (8:39)

    Son of Lorikeet
    
    Your words of warning are heard!!!
    
    I can see you too are 'going for it' before we all get deleted!

38. Bob B - 24, November, 2011 (8:36)

    SOL
    
    If it really is that bad then I would expect to see more than just the words of doom outlined. Most people need to be convinced with logical argument and most on this blog would be very receptive to a logical calm discussion of this nature. How about you convince her to undertake that with a modicum of humility and she might find some support from surprising places.

39. Son of Lorikeet - 24, November, 2011 (8:31)

    By a storm I mean a global crisis that will make the GFC look mild. The forces lined up against Australia are formidable. You have the corporate neo-communists reducing Australia to third world standards by taking our superannuation for themselves. Our retirement income will be gone and we can do nothing about it. Better to get your money out of the system ASAP and look after it yourself.
    
    Chairman Rudd and the Communist Queens will sell, no, give Australia to the Chinese economic market. We won’t have sovereignty over our own country anymore. Taliban Tony is in with them. The big parties all have the same agenda, to drag us down to the pit of economic despair where we will be slaves to the wishes of our new masters.
    
    It is not a world I want to see. My mum’s words are our only hope. Be aware.
    
    

40. Bob B - 24, November, 2011 (8:30)

    Kay
    
    I always check whats on the National Press Club 12:30 ABC1 Wednesdyas and some other days to. Its not always good but you can make that choice over lunch.
    
    I have a long departed uncle who was a Director at the club and had a pic of pride on the mantle piece at home with him talking with a young Prince Philip at the table at the press club. He was one of the group who introduced the 'oil well gong' meaning 'there she blows'. Can still see him having a chuckle over that. He was marvellous man with a wicked sense of humour. Its his wife I talk about - the 94 year old in a nursing home in Brisbane.

41. Son of Lorikeet - 24, November, 2011 (8:23)

    You are all on the horns of a dilemma about how to respond to my dear mum. Ignore her and she wins because there is no discussion. Engage her and she wins because her awareness and understanding of the global linkages affecting Australia are beyond what most people even realise.
    
    There is a storm heading towards Australia that most people sitting in the sun know nothing about. My mum is a prophet, a lone voice crying in the wilderness trying to save ungrateful people who don't want to be saved. When it all goes belly-up, don't say you weren't warned.
    
    
    

42. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (8:23)

    Sue-Do-Nim
    
    Of course Lorikeet emails the Moderator outside of this blog!!! She does it every time she reads what she perceives as criticism of her. That is how she controls the blog. Hence the deletions. Lorikeet herself said so - "As everyone should be aware, the Moderator has become somewhat stricter about what she tolerates on this blog, but could also remove more of the putdowns directed at me." (7:02. 23/11)

43. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (8:10)

    ETS
    
    Thanks for the 'heads up' yesterday about the excellent Press Club address yesterday at lunchtime on ABC1. It was a very interesting program.

44. Sue Do-Nim - 24, November, 2011 (8:01)

    Ms. L. Keet:
    Excuse my ignorance but how do you know the Chief Censor/Moderator/Administrator of this blog is indeed female?
    
    Have you perhaps corresponded with “Her” outside the confines of this site?
    
    Anyway “she “ should be at “work” shortly…interesting to see how many of our valuable and wide ranging comments hit the cutting room floor.
    

45. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (7:52)

    Helen
    
    I hear what you say about Lorikeet - and Bob B. takes the same line. And there is a great deal of wisdom in your advice to 'deprive her of oxygen'. Unfortunately, it has been tried before and it just seems to convince her that we all agree because we can't argue against her. With some mentalities like Lorikeet, I guess there just is no really satisfactory answer.

46. ETS - 24, November, 2011 (7:52)

    Lorikeet, what is the disability tax you write about? Are you confusing it with the National Disability Insurance Scheme which has widely been well received as an overdue reform? See the website for more information:
    
    http://www.fahcsia.gov.au/sa/disability/progserv/govtint/Pages/ndis.aspx
    
    If only two Senators support an issue and the rest of the Senate votes against it, it is reasonable to say the two Senators need to do much more work to broaden the support base. This is not a comment on the value or importance of the subject but on the process they undertook. Otherwise it can look like grandstanding.
    
    Or perhaps the rest of the Senate knew that entitlements were already available, the point Bob made.
    
    

47. Helen - 24, November, 2011 (7:39)

    L is the fountain of knowledge on every subject, expert is what she always says. From the way she expresses herself on various topics, it is an interest to use her time & there is little training on anything to back up most of what is posted by her.
    
    If we don't react, then it won't feed her little insanities that make her feel important.
    
    I like intelligent debate. For a senior she is very child like & I can understand why she is alone. As posted by me before, we should feel a bit sorry for her & just carry on.
    
    See you on the next topic. - Cheers...

48. Lorikeet - 24, November, 2011 (7:31)

    Bob B:
    
    I am now wondering about this "short minimum of service".
    
    I think anyone who has been irradiated and gets cancer or other health problems as a result should be entitled to the best treatment.
    
    Do you have an issue with this?
    
    Any suggestion that the 2 Senators did not do their best to amass support would not be justified. As we know, there is very little democracy within our state and federal parliaments.
    

49. Lorikeet - 24, November, 2011 (7:25)

    Bob B:
    
    I will make further inquiries into the issue. I was not veiling anything.

50. Lorikeet - 24, November, 2011 (7:24)

    The government is planning to reduce entitlements of police who have been injured in the line of duty.
    
    I also cannot understand why the federal government would want to bring in a Disability Tax which would come out of pay packets, while also cutting off as many Disability Support Pensioners as possible.
    
    I think a 20% increase in the minimum adult wage could be a net loss for workers if it is applied over 6 years, bearing in mind that the increase in the lowest taxation threshold from $6,000 to $18,500 is many long years overdue.
    
    The increasing list of direct and indirect taxes is crippling large sections of the Australian community.
    
    Foodbanks are now having to feed 100,000 people every week in SE Queensland alone. Food cages have been returned to shopping centres to help feed struggling families at Christmas.

51. Bob B - 24, November, 2011 (7:17)

    Lorikeet
    
    I repeat what I said yesterday.
    
    All ex-sevicemen with a short minimum of service are entitled to have all cancer and cancer related treatment performed at DVA expense - it's not the problem it seems to be. The problem is getting that information out to all ex-servicemen and women.
    
    
    
    Your efforts should be pointed in this advisory direction rather than the vailed criticsm I see.

52. Lorikeet - 24, November, 2011 (7:11)

    (Continued)
    
    Senator John Madigan said the major parties had showed their callous and cold side to Australians who are suffering.
    
    “There were more than 17,000 Australian soldiers and civilians who were directly involved in detonation tests and in the assessment of the fallout of the tests. There are less than 2000 of these men and women alive.”
    
    “No member of the coalition, the ALP or The Greens were prepared to stand up for the rights of these people.”
    

53. Lorikeet - 24, November, 2011 (7:09)

    Here is an excerpt from the Press Release about Maralinga:
    
    51 of 53 senators last night denied Australian services men and civilians who were directly involved in the British atomic weapon detonations test at Monte Bello Island off Western Australia and in Maralinga in South Australia the health care they deserve.
    
    Only Democratic Labor Party Senator John Madigan and Independent South Australian Senator Nick Xenophon supported the motion for those men and women to receive Department of Veterans Affairs (DVA) Veterans Gold Cards.
    
    The motion, proposed by Senator Nick Xenophon, called for the automatic provision of Gold Cards to Maralinga veterans.

54. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (7:04)

    Helen
    
    Here in Brisbane we have just had the driest November since 1914! And that has followed a very dry winter. They forecast rain/storms last night, but alas, none yet!! Our tanks are getting low (we don't have reticulated water or sewerage or garbage collection here).
    
    Yesterday my hubbie and I cleaned all our 'leaf eaters' and drainage pit. That action alone was probably enough to frighten off the predicted rain. It is so hot and humid here at the moment. Let's hope the promised rain arrives soon! Despite last year's floods, I love rain! But the weeds here grow at the rate of about a foot a day during warm wet weather.

55. Bob B - 24, November, 2011 (7:02)

    Well, some good comment coming in since I went to bed. Those on daylight saving are up very early for us in Queensland. Though I was up at 0345 EST yesterday for my first watch duty for five hours in the Seaway Tower at southport - a lovely time of day and most of the year I catch some magnificent sunrises.
    
    Some good very needed rainfall also - over 50mm overnight and the water tank from empty to 7/8th wow. Over 100mm up the hill - Beachmont, Springbook etc.
    
    One easy to clean the leaves out of the gutter place also evident so out with the ladder shortly - the joy of a Golden Penda near the house. With dry conditions they shed a lot of leaves and with a bit of wind they go everywhere - good compost material. But when in full bloom they are magnificent for an Australian native.

56. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (6:52)

    Lorikeet
    
    We are not trying to force you off the blog - unlike what you seem to be doing to us. As ETS says, and I have commented several times before (on previous topics), you do raise some good, very valid points in amongst your doomsday stuff. These points you raise are very worthy of debate and add value to the blog. And sometimes you are able to debate the topic very well. It is just a pity that you revert to your insults from time to time. Perhaps you get bored with mature debate?

57. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (6:34)

    Lorikeet
    
    Re your posting at 20:42 23/11.
    
    Don't be so cute! You know precisely what the problem is - it is you with your inflammatory/abusing comments and your constant running to the Moderator when we respond! You won't be satisfied until you force us all off the blog and your doomsday rubbish goes unchallenged!

58. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (6:20)

    (cont.)
    
    We all see how few bloggers comment on this blog when the topic doesn't appeal. If we regulars didn't contribute and change the topic from time to time after we have done the nominated topic 'to death', there wouldn't be a blog! Except for Lorikeet and WEG, that is - and Lorikeet's alter egos.
    
    This heavy-handed censorship is ruining this blog! It is handing complete control to Lorikeet!
    
    I think we are definitely old enough, and tough enough, to fight our own battles! And, for all her whingeing, I think Lorikeet loves it - after all, she starts it all! It is just that she loves running to the Moderator even more!

59. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (6:11)

    (cont.)
    
    And the Bartlett blog contains far more robust debate, criticism and language than this blog ever does - even before all the deletions. As Sue-Do-Nim says, Lorikeet does boast on the Bartlett site about her 'conquests' over other bloggers and the Moderator of the NSA (although not named) blog.
    
    Her control over the Moderator here is very worrying. I know I have never complained to the Moderator about Lorikeet's abuse, and I doubt any of the rest of you have. But I still believe Lorikeet throws 'grenades' into the blog, then runs whingeing to the Moderator when 'small arms fire' is returned. If anyone has left this site, it is much more likely they did so to escape Lorikeet's insults and sermonising.

60. Kay Kelly - 24, November, 2011 (5:59)

    Good on you, ETS, for telling it like it is!! I endorse your words entirely! I know we'll all get deleted as soon as the Moderator gets to work, but it is satisfying to see it in print, albeit for a short time.
    
    Bob B. counsels forbearance, and says he chooses not to respond to her inflammatory comments. But even he loses it from time to time and launches into print!
    
    I too keep an eye on the Bartlett blog. Lorikeet does cop a lot of criticism there too, but is strangely less inflammatory. And there is no ridiculous 160 word limit, and no deleting that I have ever noticed. Andrew Bartlett himself seems to monitor the comments and responds to what he believes to be ill-informed rubbish. I agree with Bob B. re his comment that the presence of Andrew Bartlett forces Lorikeet to show some restraint.

61. Sue Do-Nim - 24, November, 2011 (4:37)

    I’d never even heard of Andrew Bartlett’s blog until yesterday so I had a quick squiz.
    
    Posts are not limited to 160 words ,the level of personal abuse is MUCH higher than this site .Language is VERY coarse too.
    
    Topics I looked at were dominated by a relatively small number of people , no prizes for guessing who one of them was.
    
    Lorikeet plays the victim there as well…..here’s one of her postings in October.
    
    1. Lorikeet
    “A select group of playground bullies on another blog (poorly moderated) think I am winning the argument and then start attacking me, left, right and centre.
    To some people, blogging is only a game, which they use to mock and deride other people, since there is no threat to them physically.
    On the blog I am discussing, the Moderator waits until she receives numerous complaints, then deals with the problem by axing the entire commentary. How dumb is that?”
    Oct 11th, 2011
    

62. Bob B - 23, November, 2011 (22:03)

    Robyn
    
    On the other blog, Andrew is there to see her words so some constraint is shown. Thats my view. I did the same as you when she pointed out there was another blog quessing it was Mr Bartlett's. I stop in periodically to see whats going on and there are a number there who pose a problem for her by having the ordacity to disagree. They give her heaps at times.
    
    I choose to not respond when 'tongue lashed' by her.
    
    Someone asked who the 'lost' bloggers were? John Goss is one I would welcome back.

63. Bob B - 23, November, 2011 (21:55)

    ETS
    
    Is she lathered in a rage or sniggering in the corner? I truely don't know but opine she is upset at your erudite words. She has a choice to remain quiet, if possible, and keep us in the dark or respond and in so doing enforce the former.

64. Robyn - 23, November, 2011 (21:40)

    Hi ETS,
    
    I'm still out here and have read your comment which I am sure will most certainly be wiped tomorrow (along with mine probably). Good on you for stating the reality that is shared by me and, I feel sure, by others. Takes courage, especially in this new day and age on the blog where censorship is so rife!

65. ETS - 23, November, 2011 (21:14)

    I know this will be chopped, but not until tomorrow so here goes:
    
    Lorikeet is a bullshit artist who craves attention. Her comments are deliberately provocative to get a critical response, then she runs off whinging to the Moderator when it happens. She knows very little, just what she googles then claims as her own knowledge. Her self awareness is totally lacking, as is her credibility.
    
    The saddest thing is that sometimes she has some good points to raise. If she just cut the conspiracy doom and gloom crap she would find that more people agree with her.
    
    OK Lorikeet, complain to the Moderator about that.
    
    

66. Robyn - 23, November, 2011 (20:45)

    Lorikeet:
    
    On 21 November (20:26) you said: "BTW yesterday's "taboo" topic easily got up on another blog with an experienced moderator who knows what he's doing".
    So I mozied across to Andrew Bartlett's blog to take a look. You had misrepresented the case because you had changed your words in the comment over there but that is beside the point. What I did notice was that you were being heavily criticized by other bloggers in the latest strand on his blog yet you were remarkably held back in response compared with how you are on these blogs. Your "modus operandi" does indeed differ. Why is that?

67. Lorikeet - 23, November, 2011 (20:42)

    I can't understand what is wrong with you women and a couple of men.

68. Kay Kelly - 23, November, 2011 (20:12)

    NSA Moderator
    
    Lorikeet's blog at 19:36 23/11 is typical of her inflammatory blogs. As I am not allowed to point out the hypocrisy of it, I request that it please be removed.
    
    

69. Robyn - 23, November, 2011 (19:59)

    I am also waiting for your response to Son of Lorikeet WEG. Also, I question your statement "Hopefully those seniors who were discouraged from providing their views in the past will return". How do you know this is the case WEG? How do you know what is going on for anyone else? And since you think you do know, why do you think they have been discouraged? If you refuse or are unable to answer these questions you will have confirmed my view of you.

70. Lorikeet - 23, November, 2011 (19:37)

    I have no doubt that the Moderator has received numerous complaints, some warranted, some not.

71. Lorikeet - 23, November, 2011 (19:36)

    There used to be a large number of contributors to this blog. I think WEG is correct in his assessment that they will return now that the Moderator is removing comments she finds offensive.
    
    It is inappropriate to take cheap shots at people on blogs. In the past, I have eventually had to retaliate against serial abusers forming a scrum to attack me (bullying). This is not my usual modus operandi.
    
    If some people feel they are now being treated like children, they need to ask themselves why that might be.
    
    Now can we move on, and discuss issues in a mature fashion, disagreeing if we wish to, without engaging in personal attacks?
    
    

72. Kay Kelly - 23, November, 2011 (19:24)

    WEG
    
    Where were these mysterious would-be bloggers who have been discouraged from the blog by ????? earlier on in this blog topic? We were practically begging for input from others, but none obliged other than us regulars.
    
    I doubt anyone other than our feathered friend has complained to the Moderator.

73. Sue Do-Nim - 23, November, 2011 (19:21)

    This has nothing to do with the topic at hand but…..
    
    My family are all out tonight so I ordered some takeaway and popped up the street to collect same.
    
    Stopped at the traffic lights ,(yes they were Red), a very elderly gentleman was crossing the road using a walking stick as an aid.
    
    A car went straight through the red light and missed the gentleman by less than two metres.
    
    He turned ,waved his stick at the offending vehicle and walked off into the night. Unscathed but obviously very shaken.
    
    Just goes to show how a few seconds or a few metres can mean the difference between life and death in our hectic society.
    
    Makes you think, doesn’t it?
    

74. Robyn - 23, November, 2011 (18:57)

    We are no more nor less than an expression of life as it is WEG. Your accusation of gatekeeping has always been wrong and unfair. If these blogs are to be controlled so that the life and views of "older people" are to be kept "nice" and "mellow" and not really representative of authentically who we are so be it. It all feels really wrong!j4rn4

75. Son of Lorikeet - 23, November, 2011 (18:46)

    Hi WEG, you have my attention and I might possibly agree with you as my mother often does. Would you like to expand on the inane input credited to the NSA so we can go and check it out? Just a few examples would do.
    
    

76. WEG - 23, November, 2011 (18:34)

    The gatekeepers role has clearly reverted to the NSA Administrator / Moderator (as it should be) and as such I commend the NSA for cleaning up the input.
    Hopefully those Seniors who were discouraged from providing their views in the past will return.
    Whilst I’ve been 'surfing’ the internet, I’ve come across some inane input credited to the NSA website. It made me shudder. All our comments are there for the world to see.
    

77. Robyn - 23, November, 2011 (18:22)

    I meant "Opt In" not "Opt Out".

78. Robyn - 23, November, 2011 (18:17)

    I have an instinctual dislike of control when it is pushed to a max, which is what I think is happening. Fair enough that really abusive comments get deleted but most of the recent comments deleted are not as abusive (it can be questioned whether they are abusive at all) as those of Lorikeet's which have survived in the past. Just look at her final comment to me in "Opt Out".
    
    The reason why I feel angry is because we are people who have lived a large portion of our lives and have learned to not dissolve into oblivion when attacked, fairly or unfairly. I think we are being treated as FRAGILE little doddery old people!

79. Bob B - 23, November, 2011 (18:15)

    Robyn
    
    Don't be too upset. I think a number of threads that contained offensive material by only some have been deleted in toto. Meaning if one comment of a thread is out of bounds all comments on that thread go.
    
    If you do go you will be missed. Please rethink.

80. Robyn - 23, November, 2011 (18:06)

    ETS,
    
    I have been thinking of voting with my feet. To continue with my post at (8:05) I still feel angry. I find it very difficult to understand why so many comments have been deleted. I find it difficult to get my head around the fact that people are complaining to the moderator and that their complaints are given so much weight. Who are these people and why aren't they actively communicating with the blog? I also have never complained when I have felt attacked (which is often). I have faith in those who contribute to the blog - they have shown themselves to be a resilient bunch, even Lorikeet who plays victimhood to its extremes.

81. Bob B - 23, November, 2011 (17:22)

    Some may not be aware that every ex-serviceman with a certain minimum of service receives DVA support for any cancer. Cancer would be the ailment of the Maralingar 'mob', many of whom have already died (I can name a few) so they are covered for all related medical expenses now. The problem seems to be getting the message out to people.

82. ETS - 23, November, 2011 (17:14)

    A gold card for people exposed to radiation would have been popular with some people.
    
    It is very easy to vote for emotive issues like that when there is no chance of getting it up. Did the two Senators discuss it with the major parties before the vote? Was there any lobbying of Ministers or the PM or Opposition Leader to get a broader base of support?
    
    Sometimes the independents don't do themselves any favours. But it does look good in the papers.
    

83. ETS - 23, November, 2011 (17:10)

    I've never whinged to the Moderator about any comments. The Moderator does indeed have tough job and I've also had comments deleted before. I don't think my contributions today would offend even the most sensitive bird (or her son), but you never know.
    
    Way back when a comment was removed the Moderator gave a short explanation of the reason. This helps put things into perspective. Now when a comment is scrubbed some of the responses to the offending comment lack context. An explanation would be helpful.
    
    I don't want to lose the blog but if it becomes too heavy handed bloggers might vote with their feet.
    
    
    

84. Lorikeet - 23, November, 2011 (17:03)

    Today in the Senate, only Senators Madigan (DLP) and Xenophon (Independent) supported a motion to give civilians and armed services personnel who were exposed to radiation at Maralinga and another place, a Gold Card for their medical treatment. Everyone else voted against it.

85. Lorikeet - 23, November, 2011 (16:59)

    Helen:
    
    I am aware of what is in place at the moment, but a lot of the attendees were not. I think there is a need for a truly Independent Umpire, not an affiliate of the government.
    
    New recruits to aged care who are very quickly and poorly trained don't know how to do the job, especially if they are also experiencing language difficulties.
    
    You will see more of them in the corporate sector because they cannot hold onto their staff.

86. Bob B - 23, November, 2011 (16:57)

    Helen
    
    I thin k I said a few weeks ago that the Libs have no chance with Abboott and need to change leader to have prospects in the immediate future. Shame really because an effective oppostion is a bonus for the country.

87. Bob B - 23, November, 2011 (16:54)

    Helen
    
    Still waiting for the promised rain that is some way off on the radar. North NSW is copping heaps again. The radio is still promising good rain tonight. Ho hum, patients is a virtue and I have no control. The water tank is empty again for the third time this year.

88. Bob B - 23, November, 2011 (16:49)

    Settle down girls , comments have been deleted including some of mine. Generally I agree with these deletions. I also agree that Lorikeet has an unusual style that is offensive to most but not seen as such by her. I would think there has been some 'guidance' provided by NSA because her worst has gone following the hoo haa a week or so ago. So be thankfull for a step in the right direction. Some things build slowly. And in any case you sound like men comparing sizes.
    
    You have my support NSA moderator.

89. Helen - 23, November, 2011 (16:48)

    Still bucketing down here, lovely steady rain!
    I watched P Question Time. Abbot performed like a fish on the end of a line,( he flapped this way & that). It's time for him to shut his mouth. His comments are digging him a hole & making him look a fool. He should show the sportsman's grace of losing with dignity, but then he is not v dignified is he! - Cheers until tomorrow...

90. Kay Kelly - 23, November, 2011 (16:38)

    (cont.)
    
    I agree with Robyn (8:05 23/11). We are being treated like naughty children. Robust discussion is acceptable on every blog I have ever read except this one!!! It is just ridiculous! It appears Lorikeet is controlling this blog. Perhaps this is the blog that she moderates - the one she told us about but never identified?

91. Helen - 23, November, 2011 (16:36)

    cont from 1 - My opinion is that if there is an elderly dependent still living in the home, a rev M deal is not a bad idea. The stay in care is usually around four yrs occ more, sometimes less so an expensive house would still leave enough for family on their passing.
    
    It seems to me that this is where the bottom line usually is when talking about such things.
    Care has to be paid for by someone. Maybe it's time for everyone to pay into a fund in their working yrs to pay for care in the future, otherwise they will have to deal with finding the money for care.
    
    It's a difficult subject & one that is going to cause lot's of headaches because of all we "babyboomers" +...

92. helen - 23, November, 2011 (16:32)

    Lorikeet
    1. There is the "Guardianship Tribunal" there now to represent the elderly & to protect them.
    
    2. Spot checks are done very often already. The same routine is done in N/H as in hospitals, times & all. Staff can slot in at any place & know the routine as it is all the same just the people change.
    
    3.The house already has to be sold if the person being placed is living alone. It can be kept & rented out by family for two yrs to raise some money toward rels keep in a C/F. It then has to be sold. A res then has to pay fes according to the value of the asset. An exp house means more fees than a more modest house.
    
    4. It can't be sold while a dependent lives in the house.
    
    This is how it is now.! contd -
    
    

93. Kay Kelly - 23, November, 2011 (16:31)

    NSA Moderator
    
    I notice a whole lot of deletions from the blog again today!
    
    Sue-do-Nim and myself seem to be the focus of your attentions. I take exception to your allowing Lorikeet full rein with her immoderate language and attacks on others, but as soon as we point out the hypocrisy of her statements, we get deleted. I can see the logic of your deletions, though - if it criticises Lorikeet, delete.
    
    I refer you to some of Lorikeet's posts:
    * 20;26 21/11 - "The moderator will need to delete the foul commentary coming from Sue-do-Nim" - and you did!
    * 16:27 22/11 - "Yet again, Helen dishes up more insults" - no action.
    * 7:02 22/11 - "..the Moderator ....could also remove more of the putdowns directed at me" - and you did.

94. Sue Do-Nim - 23, November, 2011 (16:29)

    Wow..the “MODERATOR’ has had a busy day.
    
    It must have taken a while for him/her to remove nearly EVERY one of my contributions from the last 5 days.
    
    Was it really worth the effort?
    
    Maybe instead of wasting time and effort in that process you could have been volunteering in a Nursing Home, giving blood or helping in the community.
    
    Don’t you feel just a little ashamed of your pettiness?..Probably not!
    

95. Lorikeet - 23, November, 2011 (16:23)

    Yes, Bob B, but it's a tough one with corporates lusting after their pound of flesh.
    
    When I attended a pre-election forum in the Seat of Ryan, it became fairly clear that some people only care about the return on their investment, and not about people's care needs.
    
    At my table, there were men who seemed very concerned about the impact on their wives of reverse mortgages and a High Care bond. I am opposed to both.
    
    There was also a younger woman who advises people about retirement centres. She said some don't want to go into church facilities and that there needs to be some other alternative available.
    
    I think small family owned businesses should be all right, because they are on the spot to evaluate whatever issues arise at first hand.
    
    There was widespread support for keeping service providers on a short leash!

96. Bob B - 23, November, 2011 (16:14)

    Lorikeet
    
    Other than your statement to take it out of the 'For Profit Sector', your Forum had similar outcomes to those on the Gold Coast. Lots of similarity and that suggests those items will make the To Do list for NSA lobby on this issue.

97. Lorikeet - 23, November, 2011 (16:13)

    My mother entered a brand new corporate run facility, but we soon learned that: "All that glitters is not gold."
    
    My mother had her own room with ensuite in Low Care, followed by a 2-person room with ensuite in High Care. Then she moved to a single room with an ensuite shared by the "neighbour" on the other side.
    
    The charges were high but the service was crook, because they couldn't hold onto their staff due to excessive Corporate Greed. Mondayitis and Everydayitis became the order of the day for many disgruntled staff members.
    
    When workers are treated well and paid a decent wage, it actually saves the management money.

98. Lorikeet - 23, November, 2011 (16:06)

    The Productivity Commission's Report into Aged Care smacks very heavily of corporate greed.
    
    At today's forum, I got up and said that I wanted Aged Care moved out of the For Profit Sector. This received a round of applause.
    
    Most people seemed to be opposed to the idea of reverse mortgages on their homes, and to their homes being included in an assets test.
    
    I felt the forum would have been more successful if we had had some figures to work with. A lot of the attendees seemed to know little about Aged Care.
    
    There was strong support for an independent Ombudsman, and unexpected spot checks to occur at any time.
    
    I suggested a separate funding allocation for staff, along with quotas on every staffing classification. This would help to ensure that the available funds are spent within each facility.

99. Lorikeet - 23, November, 2011 (15:52)

    On the issues of relatives "training staff", I was referring to the following:
    
    1. Explaining my mother's care needs
    2. Showing them where to find her various items
    3. Showing them how to put on her hip protectors and skin protectors.
    
    This is fairly ordinary stuff, but new staff from overseas countries in particular, have not been given the proper training before they start work.
    
    Most staff quickly leave the corporate sector because they can get better pay and working conditions in a church facility. This means that there is a constant stream of new recruits with minimal training, and very often, poor language and cultural skills.

100. Helen - 23, November, 2011 (15:24)

     Contd - from 1
     I mentioned on a prev blog how "the better off" bring women from Turkey etc to be carers for six months. they provide good wages & their keep. This keeps their loved ones at home for as long as possible & is cheaper than paying for N/C. Many stay in this situation, some move to N/C when care becomes impossible at home. I have seen wings built on to houses to accomodate rels in Germany.
     
     Ordinary folk can't afford to do this, but do their best...

101. Helen - 23, November, 2011 (15:22)

     I agree with you ET, but there are also Gov forces in regard to care & how much Residents pay, so it's all the n/home. Where Mum was as mentioned prev some payed nothing but a portion of their pension, the care was the same for all.
     
     There is a great variant according to means. Rels don't like it (as inheritance is affected!), but some Res don't have any family & also have nothing. I would always like to see the best care for everyone.
     
     Unfortunately in our C/try we are not rewarded for diligence & hard work. O/S pensions depend of tax paid during one's working life, but, they do have to pay for their own care (or their families). sometimes nothing is left & families are still paying - contd-
     
     

102. ETS - 23, November, 2011 (15:03)

     The Productivity Commission recommendations do not seem unreasonable. I particularly think the recommendation for an Australian Seniors Gateway Agency is a good idea. I assume it will build on the existing ACAT assessment arrangements. Sheduled fees and the recommendation about carers are also good news.
     
     
     

103. ETS - 23, November, 2011 (15:02)

     It is pretty clear the costs of aged care will continue to grow and our capacity to fund it is going to compromise other areas of life. We had to sell my mother’s home to place her in the nursing home. The nursing home wanted full details of her finances and took the maximum they were legally entitled to take. We were left without much to cover her medical costs not covered by the home. It was not a satisfactory arrangement but at the time we had no alternative. From what I’ve since heard this is not unusual. Nursing homes are businesses and the “user pays” principle is strong. She received very good care and that was our number one concern.

104. ETS - 23, November, 2011 (15:02)

     This has been one of the more interesting discussions on the blog, probably because there are so many people who can speak from experience. I don’t have that experience. My mother was in the dementia wing (a very sad place) of a nursing home for the last two years of her life. The home was comfortable, the meals were good and she seemed happy enough there. But she really did not know where she was.
     

105. Helen - 23, November, 2011 (14:45)

     last contd!There were some men who were V violent. There was no Question that they would be scheduled. Also restraining is illegal. It is a huge job for staff.
     
     I did work in Dementia wings but not in a place like where my mother was. We should have more funding for such places so that there are more of them. It will be a bhuge problem starting from now. Not everyone is that old either! Life style also plays a part in some cases & the Dementias are very different in onset than Alzheimer's. It seems to move a lot slower from what I observed. Also the brain looks different under X-Ray with the Amyloid protein present...

106. Helen - 23, November, 2011 (14:44)

     contd(3)It was impossible to keep her at home any longer & my S/Father died shortly after he admitted her from the stress of trying to care for her at home.
     
     This is the other side of the arguement re who should be in N/C & who should be at home.
     
     

107. Helen - 23, November, 2011 (14:40)

     contd..They had Physios & everything incl massage, spars. It was great! My M settled in from day 1.
     Funding was the same as in low care. Sometimes it would take 4 staff to remove my mother's clothes to clean her up. She bit, kicked, spat & everything else (& they still loved her). Afterwards she was "smily" & cuddly again singing as she strutted her stuff.
     
     

108. Helen - 23, November, 2011 (14:38)

     Re N/C. My mother was in a "Spec fac for Dementia", far better than those little wings. The Res cld wander & did. They even has bus stops & benches o/side & beautiful gardens. Unfortunately they are like hen's teeth in Aust. It was pointless putting them in their own rooms because they wouldn't stay there (except at night). They wandered hand in hand & would sleep wherever! They had music dancing & craft for those who cld participate & programs for those who were not able contd -
     
     

109. Helen - 23, November, 2011 (14:22)

     Kay - I do have faith in the CT/ETS. I know we can't change evolution, but we can change "pollution" & anything that helps here & forces those who pollute to change their ways is a good one.
     
     Also the need for infrastructure & new tech is desperate if we are going to keep up with the rest of the world & for our C/Try. I also understand how people hate change. I don't follow any party either, only those I think are on the R track & I believe THIS Lab. Gov is on the right track, can't say this for some prior Lab parties (but some very early ones were v good). The Libs have def lost the plot in my opinion & I still pred That Abbott won't make the next election either as Leader.

110. Robyn - 23, November, 2011 (13:11)

     (ctd)
     
     We moved her to a new place near me in NSW. She was in a dementia care wing with about 7 others. They had lots of singing, dancing, game playing etc thanks to really wonderful staff. She was so much happier. Eventually she had a fall and refused to get out of bed anymore so they moved her into a room with 3 other women. This made things easier for the staff helping the bed ridden folk but I think it was also preferable to being stuck in a room alone, bedridden. I wouldn't like that. When I visited I used to chat to the others as well and their visitors chatted to my mum.
     Got to dash again - to the dentist this time - oh woe!

111. Robyn - 23, November, 2011 (13:06)

     Bob B,
     
     These are some good ideas but may be more applicable to Low Care than High Care. When my mother first entered low care, due to dementia, she was in a beautiful religious run facility in Qld (near my sister) She had her own large room, her own large ensuite and private garden. It was the same for all of the residents. She was very unhappy there however and felt isolated. Most of the residents just stayed in their rooms watching television. The management left a lot to be desired and we used to call the place "the gilded cage".

112. Bob B - 23, November, 2011 (11:45)

     cont...
     
     Payeers might also have a TV antenna outlet in their rooms providing choice of where and what they watch on TV. Single occupancy or shared room as well as own onsuite or shared onsuite come to mind. I'm sure there are other examples of a situation we could aim at achieving.
     
     This approach involves buildings probably at major refurb or building stage so some stability of the rules these facilities operate under is a necessity (and for more than this reason alone).
     
     What I do know is the general philosophy is right 'that if you never aim at it you will never get it'.

113. Bob B - 23, November, 2011 (11:45)

     Just to build upon the bread, jam and cream.
     
     Room size is one area this might have a modicum of working but that relies upon sufficient rooms being availabe in the first place for this to be effective. We all know of the current lack of any sort of room let alone one of the 'right' size!!!
     
     Cont... (more than 160 words)

114. ETS - 23, November, 2011 (11:44)

     There is an excellent Press Club discussion of the National Disability Support Scheme currently (12.44pm in Sydney) on ABC1 TV. Well worth watching if you read this in time.
     
     

115. Bob B - 23, November, 2011 (10:58)

     Kay Robyn
     
     A solution is not readily apparent to levels for those who pay and those who don't. I guess my thoughts start with bread, jam and cream. The assumption is that bread is totally acceptable and can be built upon with jam and cream. If you follow my drift. Implementation is probably not feasible.
     
     Lorikeet
     
     As a manger with years of wide ranging experience I would horrified to find a 'visitor' to my facility training my staff on matter where she/he had no demonstarable qualification. Nice intention by totally inappropriate.

116. Kay Kelly - 23, November, 2011 (9:42)

     Back to the topic of women, and an amusing quote from Mencken:
     
     "Love is the delusion that one woman differs from another."
     
     I think he was wrong!

117. Kay Kelly - 23, November, 2011 (9:38)

     One of my all-time favourite quotes is by H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956), an American journalist, essayist, and acerbic critic of American life and culture. He said: "For every complex problem there is a simple solution ... and it is wrong". It sums up my views entirely. hence my caution about things like the CT.
     
     Another quote of his I like is: "The worst government is the most moral. One composed of cynics is often very tolerant and humane. But when fanatics are on top there is no limit to oppression". Another reason for me to be very concerned about certainty. Just a general comment!

118. Kay Kelly - 23, November, 2011 (8:46)

     Helen
     
     I admire your absolute certainty that all the recent major legislation by this Labor/Greens government is the correct thing to do. I am not a member/permanent supporter of any political party - I just judge each topic on its merits as I see it. Many times I change my mind about issues as more information comes to hand. In that regard I keep an open mind.
     
     All governments legislate for what they see as 'the right thing to do'. I just hope you are right about the Carbon Tax, given the difficulty in rescinding it. For me - I always say only time will tell - and that includes the theory of anthropogenic climate change and the impact of the CT.

119. Robyn - 23, November, 2011 (8:05)

     Kay,
     
     I have to go out but want to quickly say that I find your contribution summing the dilemmas surrounding Nursing homes (6:09) & (6:20) outstanding. As usual you have given clear, concise expression to the important conflicting aspects.
     
     I also agree entirely with your other two posts at (5:46) and (7:34). I join with you and Sue Do-Nim in registering my own frustration at the new rigid censoring being undertaken by the moderator. I feel angry - we are being treated like children! Wish I had more time - will come back to this later.

120. Helen - 23, November, 2011 (7:42)

     The Gillard Gov have finished a super hard yr but managed to pass more than 200 pcs of leg & three major pcs. They have delivered what they said they would, successfully!
     
     Credit where it's due after all the s..t they have had to cop & our PM.
     
     It can't be unravelled either. What are the Libs going to do now when they say they will recind everything in blood. What a load of rubbish. It is not possible for two elections.
     
     Even if if they do get in next time this most imp leg IS IN and will stay & history will later tell us that is was the right thing to do to move with the times...

121. Helen - 23, November, 2011 (7:36)

     Contd..
     I also had 3 fam members pass thru as well & my heart went out to those trying to cope with their behaviour at times. 2 had dementia & 1 was a pain in the A most of the time.
     
     I spoke to a former colleague yesterday & she said that all N/Hs have gone into mourning over what happened. It was a terrible thing. I guess the truth will be known soon enough
     
     Bob - We had 50ml of rain O/N. You can have some of ours. You sound like a good Hubby, shld be more of U x

122. Helen - 23, November, 2011 (7:33)

     I like Lorikeet's contr. where she says that she "educated" poorly trained AIN's. Some that I have met have been in the system for thirty yrs. It is nice that you helped in the dining room though L. There are also ENs doing prac Tr in facilities as well as carers. With so few staff & so many to look after an "advocate" is essential in my opinion as long as they are reasonable. When Res can't tell you how they feel, it is good to have a family member who knows the person well to help in this regard.
     
     Kay & Bob - I know how you feel but everyone has to to be cared for equally according to their needs & the compassion shown is no different for any resident, regardless of whether they are violent, difficult or lovely souls. It's the way it is in every place I ever was contd -
     
     

123. Lorikeet - 23, November, 2011 (7:02)

     As everyone should be aware, the Moderator has become somewhat stricter about what she tolerates on this blog, but could also remove more of the putdowns directed at me.
     
     The ideas of the Productivity Commission will have the greatest financial impact on elderly women, who are already exhausted from visiting their ailing husbands and managing the couples' affairs alone.
     
     I found that at a large church run aged care centre, the ratio of women to men in Low Care was 11:1, with 17:1 in a corporate facility.
     
     High Care has a greater number of men, but they are still heavily outnumbered by women.
     
     To relate this back to the topic, the government is planning a financial attack on widows and soon-to-be widows to keep their corporate mates happy.
     
     
     
     

124. Kay Kelly - 23, November, 2011 (6:20)

     (cont.)
     
     So what is the solution? I simply don't know. Forcing the spouse living in the family home to remortgage/reverse-mortgage the home to fund the care of his/her spouse seems cruel. It does not take into account the stress on both spouses caused by this action. Force the family to pay? Not on! Most families simply don't have any spare resources to spend on their oldies - and this would be exceedingly stressful on the oldie too.
     
     So I guess it must come down to the oldie who has provided for his/her old age paying in some way. But it still seems that those who deliberately got rid of their assets, and/or led a wasteful life are getting a free ride courtesy of the the more responsible people in the community.
     
     I just hope that I and my spouse never need a nursing home. But that is in the lap of the gods!

125. Kay Kelly - 23, November, 2011 (6:09)

     Bob
     
     I tend to agree with your comment at 8:38 22/11. I know other bloggers will get upset about my comments, but it does seem intuitively wrong that those who pay nothing into the system get exactly the same care as those who are forced to use all their assets. I see so little incentive in the system for people to work hard, and sacrifice things along the way, in order to provide for their own retirement and subsequent care.
     
     On the other hand, Robyn's 9:03 comment in response to Bob B. contains very valid points about how this differentiation between big and low contributors could/should occur. Also, Helen very validly makes the point that someone has to pay for this ever-growing need for aged care. Who should pay for it? To expect free nursing care for everyone = the government pays = ever increasing taxes on everyone = overall weakening of the economy.

126. Kay Kelly - 23, November, 2011 (5:46)

     Sue Do-Nim
     
     Yes, I agree with you about the deletion of comments. A few of my postings have been removed. A couple were critical of Lorikeet's immoderate language, but my language was very considered and definitely not nasty in any way. I have never abused anyone on this blog - even Lorikeet. Even a posting congratulating SoL on his sense of humour (because I personally believe SoL is doing a tongue-in-cheek imitation of Lorikeet) was removed. So I am pretty annoyed, too.
     
     When you consider the robust discussions that occur on other blogs, the 'Nanny-state' approach by the Moderator on this blog is ridiculous. My words are always well-considered and never insulting. It is my view that the only person who has complained about this blog is our feathered friend.

127. Lorikeet - 22, November, 2011 (20:16)

     I tend to agree with Bob B regarding CEOs.
     
     No doubt the most cunning cost-cutting rationers command the highest fee.

128. Bob B - 22, November, 2011 (17:22)

     Helen
     
     Our turn for rain tomorrow. Pleeeeaaaassseeeee. The tank is almost empty and the lawns brown. The new plants in a rejigged garden out the front are looking healthy but will soon be tested with dryer conditions. Is that enough reason for rain?
     
     I mowed the lawn last week and there was no moisture in the clippings at all its that dry.
     
     Yesterday after making shelving for her who has remodelled where some things go in the kitchen I was dripping wet - and happy with that glow of making something yourself. So stripped off and into the pool which has just been returned to 'summer state' and has warmed to a lovely 28.

129. Helen - 22, November, 2011 (16:58)

     I must have done something good today. The rain held off until we mowed the lawns & made the garden look beautiful (I looked like a drowned rat) when I came in & pretty filthy.
     
     Feel good now after a nice hot shower. Time to sign off. Lovely rain to fill our tank & water the garden. I wish there was a turn off switch for grass!! (& weeds).
     
     Cheers til tomorrow everyone incl L & her family...

130. Bob B - 22, November, 2011 (16:57)

     On the issue of remuneration of CEOs, I have a firm view that most are driven by greed to maximise the bonus portion by doing whatever it takes to get over the hurdle. Hurdles are written to fool most and advantage the CEO. If that means service suffers etc so be it, they have their millions and are happy in their own clique hidden away from the rest of us.

131. Helen - 22, November, 2011 (16:54)

     Lorikeet. I don't know where you get your info from but nursing homes are stricly governed, gov ones too. they might not be quite as fancy, although Lotte Stewart in Sydney (a transitional NH) is very good. They are a bit more like a hospital.
     
     I'll bet you did a lot of complaining(the mind boggles)! Enough now, I don't usually comment on these issues unless I hear "fanciful" comments based on untruths...

132. Lorikeet - 22, November, 2011 (16:41)

     Bob B:
     
     I have read about the new system and understand your concerns. I think the government wants to accede to Corporate Greed.
     
     In recent years, I have helped the Australian Nursing Federation try to unionise the workplace and often receive information from them.
     
     I fully realise my situation is not unique, but I still don't support an attitude which gives a lesser aged care service to the poor.
     
     We need a system that meets the needs of all elderly and disabled people in the system, takes into account the needs of spouses, pays workers a living wage and (where there are shareholders) ensures a reasonable return.
     
     The last would be helped most by a cap on payouts to CEOs.
     
     From what I have seen and heard, I support the churches in aged care, not money grubbing corporates creating a conflict of interest.

133. Lorikeet - 22, November, 2011 (16:27)

     Yet again, Helen dishes up more insults.
     
     About a year ago, I called in investigators from the Dept of Health & Ageing, after a Nepalese nurse told me she had had to work without gloves 2 days running.
     
     Although they found a number of breaches besides this, apart from making the aged care centre buy more linen, no breach was recorded against them.
     
     Then when the investigator organised for a spot check soon after, someone gave the corporates a tip off. As also happened whenever accreditation teams came, yet again the nurses' station was filled with twice as many RNs as usual.

134. helen - 22, November, 2011 (15:24)

     I don't know much about gov run fac. I only worked for church run facs& they were excellent. My MIL was in a German fac, again great. They baked cakes every day for them & they had home cooked food. They did rely very much on gov support to help keep fees down. Not all priv NH are bad, they have inspections @ random often & would lose their licence if things were crook. Most criticism is from news/Ps & mostly it is exagerated, which is v upsetting if you happen to work there...

135. Helen - 22, November, 2011 (15:23)

     Re bonds for "hostel". They are large but on the death of the resident it is goes to the estate & only "on costs" for the amount of time stayed is deducted.
     
     When my MIL went from low care to HC, the bond stayed with the facility whilst she was there. If they had given it back my MIL would have lost her pension. They do get int as it is invested but that is better than losing all entitlements - contd -
     
     

136. Helen - 22, November, 2011 (15:13)

     You're out of your depth here Lorikeet. Being a "V" is quite different to being part of the system. You forget the poorer residents get car & most things free & only a portion of their pension is used. The so called "rich" pay huge fees & have to pay for medication & everything else. You just don't hear about it as a V.
     At the moment if a spouse or dependent is living in the home it can't be sold.
     
     I see no harm using "equity" in the house to pay for care. The dependent can still live in the house until they decide to sell & downsize or need care themselves.
     
     It is hard but putting our head in a bucket doesn't change the fact that there are too many of US! contd -

137. Bob B - 22, November, 2011 (14:14)

     Lorikeet
     
     You are not the only one with nursing home experience. We have bloggers who have worked in these homes. We have others who's spocess worked in these homes. And, we have people with relatives in these homes and have a deal of knowledge from direct contact as you have.
     
     My mother and mother-in-law have passed through high care with Alzheimers and have a 94 years old aunt in a home in Brisbane. We visit 6 or 7 times a year. Her daughter and G/Ks visit frequently and one daughter daily as she works almost next door.
     
     
     I am sorry for your loss but it is not unique by far.

138. Bob B - 22, November, 2011 (14:07)

     Peaple criticing my approach should read the proposed new system before making remarks. Those remarks are based on the current system whereas a totally new, repeat, totally new system is proposed and up for consideration. Please look at the new system before commenting. It bases payment for aged care (all levels) on using the family home (even if one of a couple need aged care and the other not) by sale or mortgage.

139. Lorikeet - 22, November, 2011 (13:52)

     To remind those who seem to have forgotten quite a lot, I had a mother living in corporate Aged Care for 7 years. She died only 6 months ago.
     
     For a year or two, I make gifts for the bingo basket and various items for sale at stalls. Out of 7 volunteers, 6 of us had relatives or friends in high care. At the end of the year, the management spent the money we raised on the rich, while the people living in High Care got nothing. End of story!
     
     After that I continued to help other volunteers with bingo, helped nurses and kitchen hands clear the lunchtime dishes, fetched and carried for the residents, but very seldom donated anything.
     
     When Mum died, most of her clothes and shoes went to the other residents, and a few things were kept by the underpaid staff. I gave 2 pairs of my own new shoes to a nurse and a laundry worker.

140. Robyn - 22, November, 2011 (10:51)

     Ok, I'm beginning to believe that SoL is truly Lorikeet's son (but which one?) and you Sue dear are you, not WEG. Wonder if you two will ever kiss and make up? You both make things interesting!

141. Helen - 22, November, 2011 (10:43)

     SOL
     Sometimes this is not possible as many would know. There are many Carers who die before loved ones because they have tried.
     Many need lifters & two people to cope & many Carers are elderly themselves. Sad but true.
     Each 4 yrs there is accreditation in C/Fs. This determinds Gov support (& how much). This is why C/fac are so "toey" at this time. Less funding means fewer staff & a higher wk L on already stretched resources.
     I cld speak for hrs on this topic (but this carer must go back to mowing the grass) before it rains...

142. Son of Lorikeet - 22, November, 2011 (9:44)

     WEG Do-Nim, I can assure you I am my mother's son. She is my mother. We are two very different people.
     
     ETS, the apple has not rolled far from the tree because I have a very good "roll" model to follow.
     
     How much do we really respect our senior people? Nursing home staff work long, hard hours for low wages. It is totally disproportionate to the huge fees charged to residents. People are better off staying in their own homes as long as they can possibly and safely do so. Going into private nursing homes puts them at the mercy of the corporate system.
     
     

143. Helen - 22, November, 2011 (9:07)

     Families shld also look into themselves as these poor souls are often so neglected by family & just "hang out" for a V. My work in priv homes shocked me at times too re family neglect.
     
     AND,I found that many who complained re care in my experience, were often those who never came to see their parent in their home situation v often either & just popped in occ or not at all when they had to be put into care. Not all FM of course are like this & many were loving & wonderful to their old folk. Let me tell you though I could write a book on those who didn't scrub up & it would shock all of you!...

144. Helen - 22, November, 2011 (9:05)

     I guess L did ruffle my H/bry feathers. I get a bit p.o. with arrogant views based on "ignorance" I guess. contd -
     
     When my M was in N/C there were 4 beds in her room. One Res paid nothing, one paid heaps because she had a million dollar home to sell (& had to sell!) & the other 2 incl my M was supplemented with the pension. The same care in every way. It's the way it is here. It's getting harder though & I do predict will change one day (not too far away).
     
     

145. Robyn - 22, November, 2011 (9:03)

     Bob B,
     
     I don't agree that those who pay more than the pension (the current bottom line) should get better service than those who don't pay more. How would you suggest this service should differ in high care? Lower care for the poor? How would we differentiate the genuine poor from those who purposefully spent all their money anyway? To introduce a high care service that would discriminate with care would be a very retrograde step in our so called civilized society.

146. Bob B - 22, November, 2011 (8:38)

     To continue...
     
     I guess if I have to pay for old aged care then I should be entitled to something a little better than those who don't pay because they can't. We must look after our people but to provide for me who pays the same service those that don't pay receive is discriminatory.
     
     We all came into this world the same, though some more fortunate than others, and we all leave the same, again the estate being more fortunate for some than others. Why aim for equality at death.
     
     So please go to the forums and have your say to help NSA lobby to help us.

147. Bob B - 22, November, 2011 (8:31)

     cont....
     
     We are fortunate to have some money invested in my wife's name in a super fund but when she turns retirement age it is included in the assessed package and I loose the old age pension. We could go out and spend it to avoid this but we want to keep it as a 'safety valve'.
     
     For this we will likely be penalised if aged care comes our way. This is grossly unfair but our system seems to cater well for those who don't care about their future at all.
     
     We should make it tough for these people and maybe that will set a standard for the young to take notice off!!

148. Bob B - 22, November, 2011 (8:30)

     Kay is right in my view about those who spend up so they can go on the old age pension. Our intention was to be totally self funded retirees and thought we provided well for that. I just qualify for the old age pension after 11 years in retirement it has erroded so much.
     
     Cont.....

149. Kay Kelly - 22, November, 2011 (7:55)

     Moderator
     
     Please reconsider your 160 word limit. Or at least explain to us what this limit achieves. We all end up having to post a string of comments to finish what we are trying to say. What is the point of it all?

150. Kay Kelly - 22, November, 2011 (7:51)

     (cont.)
     
     It therefore makes me really mad when these same wasteful people call us self-funded retirees "rich"! These same people who are funded by the taxes we paid and continue to pay!

151. Kay Kelly - 22, November, 2011 (7:50)

     Helen
     
     I take my hat off to you for your work, both paid and unpaid, at nursing homes. I have been very lucky in that, to date, I haven't had to deal with nursing homes. I hope I never shall, but we have no control over some things.
     
     Like you, my husband and I worked long and hard, thought ahead about our retirement, took financial risks, and are now self-funded retirees. I concede that many people have not had the opportunity to provide for their retirement (like my mother's generation when superannuation opportunities were few and far between, or those on very low incomes etc). However, I also know people who have deliberately spent money rather than invest it (took long overseas jaunts, long around-Australia trips, bought expensive new homes, always wore designer clothes, bought new very expensive cars etc) to enjoy their own money and ensure they would still be eligible for an age pension.
     
     

152. Helen - 22, November, 2011 (7:20)

     Contd. I look thru very clear glasses & not thru fog!
     Many don't provide for their retirement because they just don't! There is a % who can't & these will always be looked after here & there are some who just spend it all & expect the taxpayer to pick up the tab.
     
     Incidently, my husband got no help at all for eight yrs of his 18yr illness. We still pick up the tab for many things & have to stay in a Health Fund. We are comfortable, but not rich & paid for 100% of our retirement, can you say that my feathered friend?...

153. Helen - 22, November, 2011 (7:13)

     contd - My own mother passed away two yrs ago in a "Specialist N/H" & was there for the last 3 1/2 yrs of her life. Only 1/3 of residents even got visitors, so the staff also were their families.
     
     Often when visitors did come (if they did), some would whinge because they didn't like the smell etc. Even though the place was spotless, one can't stop what happens & can't be there 24/7 with one resident.
     
     I volunteered to go on the bus with the rec officer, otherwise the residents couldn't go out. In the end my M was unable to go, but I contd to help here.
     
     

154. Helen - 22, November, 2011 (7:07)

     Contd - I also pointed out that in other countries, our system is not on. The families are responsible & that is in the more civilised c/trys.
     
     Then there are C/trs who just let their older people starve if they have no-one.
     
     I was trying to make a point that we are very lucky here that we don't have this system. Staff in N/H are over-regulated & underpaid. I saw cut after cut, particularly in Dementia homes & the same amount of staff was supposed to (& still is) supposed to look after the same number as in low care. This is a huge ask & is why many go & work elsewhere. -contd

155. Helen - 22, November, 2011 (7:01)

     Lorikeet - As usual you have got it all wrong! I have "HUGE" compassion for people with disabilities & for the infirmed.
     
     I also spent twelve yrs of my life working with these people, 8 in nursing homes & another 3 1/2 as a Private Nurse, so please don't tell me I don't know. I did this as my second job after spending 16 yrs working with doctors. I think this gives me a great insight into the problems for them all.
     
     What I said was, IF WE CAN support ourselves, then we should - contd

156. Lorikeet - 22, November, 2011 (6:40)

     I think WEG is a good, even handed contributor to this blog.
     
     I agree with Bob B on discussing the aged care matters later.
     
     I checked out a link on the 20% wage increase for workers, and it seems they are to get it over a 6 year period. At the real rate of inflation, they will still be losers. I'm also wondering how and if that wage increase will flow on to visa holders.
     
     I think an immediate 10% increase and 2 x 5% increases over the next 2 years would be more appropriate.
     
     

157. Bob B - 21, November, 2011 (21:34)

     SOL
     
     Its being comfortable or otherwise about sharing my views. I made comment and provided a link to enable people to look at what the Productivity Commission is recommending and be aware of the forums. To start telling others what was discussed at an early forum could jeopardise the activity and useful of those that follow.

158. Son of Lorikeet - 21, November, 2011 (21:20)

     Agree, SDN shows a poor capacity to engage constructively with other people.
     
     I hope we can have a useful discussion after the meeting and when Bob feels comfortable about sharing his views. This forum could make a valuable contribution, moreso if WEG/Sue Do-Nim takes a holiday.
     

159. Lorikeet - 21, November, 2011 (20:26)

     The moderator will need to delete the foul commentary coming from Sue-Do-Nim.
     
     Robyn:
     
     One day you will catch up and understand what I have been trying to tell you. BTW yesterday's "taboo topic" easily got up on another blog with an experienced moderator who knows what he's doing.
     
     Bob B:
     
     Yes, I agree with you regarding the home, and look forward to an interesting discussion later. There are excellent reasons why there is no bond on High Care. I remain to be convinced that one is needed.
     
     I have just had word that all aged care and disability workers have been granted a 20% pay increase.
     
     Helen:
     
     Those who are in good financial circumstances should have more compassion for the poor who, perhaps due to a poor level of education or intellect, don't have the same capacity to amass wealth.
     
     As we know, you have previously expressed negative attitudes towards the disabled, even though your own husband has Parkinson's Disease.

160. Helen - 21, November, 2011 (17:15)

     I do believe we all should be responsible for our own later yrs. Many don't do anything & enter senior yrs with nothing much (for whatever reason).
     Ideally it is nice to leave everything to our kids but commonsense tells me that they should provide for themselves & get what we have left.
     
     We can also help them when they need it (which is what we did) to kick them off. why wait until they have everything which is what happens now.
     
     Many seniors as I write are out spending all their money without a care & expect the C/try to pick up the tab when they are infirmed. do you agree with this.
     
     Anyway must sign off now from H/Bury paradise until tomorrow. Hubby is fishing across the road. I just untangled his line for him. He thought it might confuse the fish! Cheers...

161. Helen - 21, November, 2011 (17:08)

     Bob I don't think any of us want that. We are however getting too many oldies (more than ever before). Those with nothing here pay nothing for a similar space that those with assets have to pay for. Seems unfair but in other C/trys the person has to pay & then it is their families who have to pay for their oldie with nothing.
     
     Just keep bringing people here & soon it will be in our C/try too. We have been lucky so far. Soon though we won't be able to cope (& someone has to pay) as people have to be cared for. contd -

162. Bob B - 21, November, 2011 (16:41)

     Lorikeet
     
     I certainly cannot support the recommendations on using monies held in the family home for aged care especially when one of the couple does not require care.
     
     Please read the recommendations before you go to a forum or indeed offer comment on this blog.
     
     http://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/110895/03-aged-care-recommendations.pdf
     
     I will not discuss issues raised at our forum until after people have attended theirs because that could be counterproductive. But I am on the public record about selling the family home so that's fair game.
     
     I commend all members to the recommendations and the deeper insides if you so desire.
     
     

163. Son of Lorikeet - 21, November, 2011 (16:38)

     Hi Mum. I think I get scrubbed every time I mention Taliban Tony Abbott.
     
     Let's see if it is true.
     

164. Robyn - 21, November, 2011 (15:43)

     Lorikeet:
     
     You know that I support those who are demonstrating against corporate greed. What I have trouble with is the extremes to which you go with your pictures of doom and gloom.

165. Lorikeet - 21, November, 2011 (15:39)

     While whoever my 4th son really is remains a mystery, I have to wonder why all of his comments have been deleted.

166. Lorikeet - 21, November, 2011 (15:35)

     Robyn:
     
     Yes, you are now getting the picture about who is being empowered by the Green agenda - not your friends - but corporates, who are here to fleece us in every way.
     
     Bob B:
     
     Do you think a man whose wife is still living in the home should have to put a reverse mortgage on it to pay a High Care bond?
     
     I'm sure most people will be interested to learn of the various ideas that were gleaned at the forums you attended.

167. Robyn - 21, November, 2011 (14:58)

     Bob B,
     
     My comment to SoL no longer makes sense since he has been wiped again. He must be spitting chips by now. I think he is either who he says he is or a troll.
     
     Had friends to lunch yesterday who have recently installed 6 solar panels. They said they get 6 cents per kilowatt hour for their surplus production and the energy company goes on to sell that for 22 cents pkh. What a rort!

168. Bob B - 21, November, 2011 (14:44)

     Robyn
     
     I think Son of Lorikeet has escaped and is letting loose whilst he can. Seems to have a different view of watch is legal than the rest of us. Never mind is entertaining some of the time.
     
     Where do we go from here having solved the Santa issue, mining tax, fracking etc? Maybe we can discuss the topic of the forums - old age care concentrating on the family home aspect.

169. Bob B - 21, November, 2011 (14:39)

     Helen
     
     Probably drove past your place plenty of times in the mid 60's when stationed at Richmond. I particularly liked the rocky bottom in the shallows and the little bridge we went across to get up the hill. Very nice, took my mum and sister along there for picnics.

170. Robyn - 21, November, 2011 (14:11)

     I used to go camping at the Colo River. Very beautiful place.

171. Robyn - 21, November, 2011 (14:01)

     Son of Lorikeet,
     
     Calling Santa, Mrs Claus, the elves and reindeers (I think that makes up the whole brigade) - "asinine" - really is not very nice!

172. ETS - 21, November, 2011 (13:52)

     Thanks Helen. Laurakeet is right, it does sound ideal, even to an inner city-ite like me.
     
     I know the area reasonaby well. In addition to where my parents were, I had an auntie and uncle who lived at Kurrajong long ago when I was young. They had an apple orchard. My mother and her brother would go there for school holidays but it was no vacation because they had to work like slaves in the orchard. But they still loved the scenary of that part of the country.
     
     

173. Laurakeet - 21, November, 2011 (13:35)

     What a change to the blog today. The first few days muat have been an abberation and we are now back to normal.
     
     Helen, your rural retreat sounds ideal, a place to get away from the stresses of the world. I hope you and your husband have many happy years there.
     
     

174. Helen - 21, November, 2011 (13:30)

     ETS We're about half hr further out from Windsor NSW & are very close to the river on the high side.
     We can just walk across the road to the river. It is very pretty here.
     
     We were on acreage at Dural in the Nth West of Sydney but even though we are not now (just a big block) with bush all around & the river op, we still feel like we are. It was a good move 2yrs ago for us & we have & are making a lovely garden here...

175. ETS - 21, November, 2011 (11:46)

     Hi Helen, I meant to ask you on the Silvio page if your Hawkesbury place is anywhere near Windsor? My mother lived at Windsor just a short walk from the river. She moved there after my father died. Before that they had acreage at Oakville, just down the Windsor Road. It is a very pleasant, relaxing area and a good place to live.
     
     Son of Lorikeet, you may be guilty by association. Like mother, like son perhaps?
     
     

176. ETS - 21, November, 2011 (11:44)

     Hi Kay, you are spot on. I live in inner Sydney, comfortably away from any mining sites. I expect State Governments will increase the mining royalties to get their share of profits too.
     
     From what I know about mining, the key factors when a company is looking at a mine site are the quality of the resource and the level of sovereign risk, which is the ability of the company to undertake its business in a safe and transparent regulatory environment, without surprises being sprung. Australia has extensive resources of high quality coal and iron ore and I would back our regulatory regimes at the State and Federal levels against any regimes in Africa at this time. Whether we should be mining coal at all is another question, but as it is happening in such a big way, I don’t believe the tax is inappropriate.
     
     

177. Sue Do-Nim - 21, November, 2011 (11:42)

     Dear National Seniors Australia Moderator:
     Thank you very much for censoring,deleting, removing those libellous remarks posted by a well known contributor yesterday afternoon.
     
     Well done.
     

178. Robyn - 21, November, 2011 (11:21)

     Kay,
     
     I'm not an expert either but I do share your concerns. It is not just the Qld government and opposition relishing the royalties and not just country areas at risk. Amazing to think they plan to mine inner city Sydney at St Peters. Opposition in my (country) area is huge but the mining has begun. Our local councils are registering opposition as well.
     

179. Bob B - 21, November, 2011 (11:13)

     National Seniors
     
     I didn't notice but was drawn to some deletions. Thank you for this action.

180. Lorikeet - 21, November, 2011 (11:05)

     Based on advice from those who have been out and about examining the effects of coal seam gas on the water table and agriculture, it seems clear that a lot of the hoo-haa is designed to remove Aussie farmers from their land.

181. Lorikeet - 21, November, 2011 (11:01)

     Someone is now axing a hell of a lot of comments.

182. Bob B - 21, November, 2011 (11:01)

     What Mrs C pack the sleigh!!!! From my experience its a man's job as he gets more into the space available.
     
     My view on fracking.
     Back to basics. We don't know enough yet to be sure we are not damaging permanently or otherwise the excellent food bowls in which these things are placed or affect due to sub terrainian water. We do know food is in growing demand worldwide and Australia could be well placed as a supplier. Damage these food bowls and we will be more and more dependent on overseas food suppliers. Once that happens we are open strategically to domination. This sounds like a tame Lorikeet missive but to its obvious. A moratorium is a sound approach.

183. Robyn - 21, November, 2011 (10:53)

     Helen,
     
     I think the whole Santa story needs to be rewritten to better reflect our modern day values. Do we have any published authors on the blog? I vaguely remember someone at some time saying they wrote a book about koala cuddling habits.
     

184. Kay Kelly - 21, November, 2011 (10:46)

     Robyn
     
     Again, I am not an expert. However, my instinct is that the signs re the safety of this process are not good. I would prefer a complete moratorium on this process, especially in food producing areas (cropping and grazing). Also a complete moratorium where underground water is being used for people, crops or animals. I am very concerned that our primary food-producing areas will be permanently contaminated.
     
     The Qld government and Opposition both appear to relish the royalties to be obtained from this resource extraction. But of course, the Qld budget needs all the help it can get, regardless of who is running the State!

185. Robyn - 21, November, 2011 (10:30)

     I agree with ETS's comments on the mining tax. I think it is unlikely that a super profits tax will discourage investment in this highly profitable industry.
     
     Kay,
     What is your view on gas mining and fracking?

186. Helen - 21, November, 2011 (10:03)

     I'm with you Robyn! I'll bet Mrs C packs the sleigh as well with all the goodies. Besides old St Nick is far too fat from consuming all that junk food & grog. I think we should partition for him to diet as it's not a good look for the GK to see him look like that.
     
     Has he got fatter from when we were children? I think perhaps he has. Mrs C on the other hand always looks glam & wears minnie skirts. I wonder what her secret is, probably work, work & more work. Nothings changed here & gets back to our topic, tee hee!

187. Robyn - 21, November, 2011 (9:41)

     Son of Lorikeet,
     
     Please don't garbage the serious discussion about Santa getting all the glory. Mrs Claus does deserve to have more of the action. Why does she have to stay at home feeding the elves and cleaning up after them while Santa is off galivanting around the world in his sleigh? It really is not fair!

188. Kay Kelly - 21, November, 2011 (9:27)

     ETS
     
     Methinks you don't live in a mining-dependent State? Here in Qld, we need more money by way of increased royalties! Especially after the way the Beattie/Bligh governments managed to squander our budget!

189. Lorikeet - 21, November, 2011 (9:27)

     Son of Lorikeet:
     
     After writing your latest comment, you are quite welcome to become my 4th son, as long as you behave yourself properly.
     
     While I mostly prefer to leave the discussion of a Mining Super Profits Tax or Rent Resource Tax to others, we need to be careful that mining companies don't simply take their business elsewhere. I am told Africa has fairly decent iron ore resources, but not in the same concentrations or quantities found in the Pilbara region of WA.
     
     Access to Slave Labor is also better in Africa than it is here.

190. Kay Kelly - 21, November, 2011 (9:23)

     Son of Lorikeet
     
     Your Mum taught you well! You have the jargon off pat! Very amusing!
     
     I think your Mum was just busy this weekend - hence no blogs. I can't imagine a topic she wouldn't dive into in her inimitable manner - sorry about the word 'inimitable' - you do imitate her very well!

191. ETS - 21, November, 2011 (9:16)

     I can’t see much wrong with the mining tax. The mining sector is the healthiest part of the Australian economy and demand and therefore prices will remain strong into the foreseeable future. Mining is not a huge contributor to GDP, nor to employment and it is reasonable for the government to want a more equitable taxation regime that takes account of these super profits. There is no good reason why it should be limited to just coal and iron ore.
     
     I’m still not sure what to make of the Son of Lorikeet. Is he genuine or taking the piss? I suspect he is not the biological son of Lorikeet (won’t go any further with that image) but in a philosophical sense it seems the apple has nor rolled far from the tree.
     
     

192. Bob B - 21, November, 2011 (9:04)

     Son of Lorikeet
     
     Vous avez ma sympathie

193. Bob B - 21, November, 2011 (8:59)

     On the mining tax for me its back to basics for I don't really understand what is going on.
     
     I see we have loads ans loads of Australia's minerals etc being mined and shipped overseas. Its Australia's minerals and to trade is a good thing. A good price is a good thing. To repay Australians for purchases from overseas through some mechanism, a mining tax is it today, is a good thing.
     
     The mining tax must be equitable and shared evenly without jeopardising the trade potential by pricing us out of the market. Overseas buyers should pay well for this little piece of australia.

194. Kay Kelly - 21, November, 2011 (8:13)

     Back to the Christmas theme. Yes, Helen, we too always have a 'street party', although as we live in an acreage area, it is a bit further to walk. It is great to catch up with what's happening to everyone in the area. It is also a great opportunity to welcome new-comers as new houses are being built all the time. This is a lovely, very friendly little community! The party is BYO everything, but then we share as everything goes on a big table (or two). It is usually held very early in December so those who travel away for Xmas/New Year don't miss out.
     
     We look forward to this each year, although sometimes there is too much rain - like last year (remember the Qld floods?). In that case, we have an Easter street party - more likely to be dry then.

195. Kay Kelly - 21, November, 2011 (7:43)

     (cont.)
     
     Is the passing of the legislation a cause for celebration? I think only time will tell. It's a bit like the CT - this won't help the climate, but may encourage more research/investment in alternative energy technologies. But it could easily adversely effect the economy, given that Australia has gone it alone amongst its main trading partners. Once again, only time will tell. It is difficult to think of any intervention that does not have both positive and negative outcomes. It is the overall balance of these that matters in the long term.

196. Kay Kelly - 21, November, 2011 (7:42)

     I am not an expert on this super profits mining tax, but it seems to me that it just a matter of whether you prefer the Federal or State government to waste your money.
     
     The States normally collect royalties on the extraction of resources, and they can easily increase the rate and threshold of these royalties.
     
     On the other hand, the Federal government has so depleted the budget that it needs more taxes to help it back to surplus - and Wayne Swan is still committing to a surplus.
     
     Either way, the mining companies get hit up for more money. Does this discourage further mining investment? I don't know, but if it does, it will have an adverse effect on the economy.
     
     

197. Helen - 21, November, 2011 (7:29)

     Sorry for my last slightly disjointed posting. I tried the old cut & paste for the first time. I'm sure I will get better with practise...

198. Helen - 21, November, 2011 (7:25)

     This Yr it will be here. It is certainly different from when I grew up & lunch is Aussie/European. We used to go to a German church in the city yrs ago, but now no-one can manage this anymore. In fact the church bit seems to have disappeared.
     
     We get a lot of pleassure out of Xnmas with the G/K helping their Opa to build the tree & we decorate our top verandah with lights etc. The Carols in town are lovely too.
     
     In our street, we have a "street party" & catch up with neighbours who come in early December & have some finger food & a drink beforewe all move on to the next house. We don't see them all yr because of where we are but it is nice & makes for a lovely atmosphere with a trail of people wandering up the rd to the next place...

199. Helen - 21, November, 2011 (7:21)

     As for Xmas. We have Xmas on Xmas Eve with the only raiming member of my husband's family & her husband & family & then with our family on Xmas day, usually shared around. contd -
     
     

200. Helen - 20, November, 2011 (16:58)

     We children made presents for our parents & one year we cut down a small (rather sick) little Pine tree & dragged it home on the train & hid it around the side of the house. We watered it and kept it alive for two weeks & on Xmas Eve when Mum & Dad were asleep (well I think they were), we put it in the lounge room & decorated it.
     
     I must admit we never had a tree until then, I don't know why. My Dad was not a religious man & Mum didn't seem to care much about such things either. They also could not afford to buy one I guess.
     
     Xmas changed when we all grew up & I'll have to tell you about that tomorrow as I have run out of time tonight so cheers until then...

201. Helen - 20, November, 2011 (16:49)

     Xmas was very small when I was growing up & mostly just between our immediate family because until I was 9 we had no car & the rest of our rels lived so far away. We lived in one of the new at the time Sydney suburbs in a war service home.
     
     We usually had a "Pumped Leg" & my dad would kill one of our chooks for Xmas dinner. We children made pets out of our chooks so mostly there were tears & we wouldn't eat it.
     
     Presents were also small. We would get clothes that we needed & a small toy. I only ever had two dolls, one of which I didn't like because it had curls like me so I left it out in the rain. For my trouble I got my bum smacked (child abuse) & it was repaired for my birthday six months later - contd -

202. Bob B - 20, November, 2011 (15:35)

     Yes, true equality across the sexes would be a plus. Great advances have been made and more need to be made.
     
     I just saw in the paper this morning that women with attractive eyes may be forced to cover them up in Saudi Arabia. Now who is going to be the judge? Probably any man with a grudge or a power play problem. All women will now be forced to cover their eyes. Its an anacronism. It is said that men will take advantage of women dressed 'inappropriately' which is blatantly untue as demonstrated in western and other countries.

203. Kay Kelly - 20, November, 2011 (15:02)

     Bob
     
     Don't get too upset about the Mrs Santa stuff! Just joking! I'm not a feminist - I just believe in a 'fair go' for everyone.

204. Bob B - 20, November, 2011 (13:06)

     So there is a 'push' to change the sex of Santa.
     
     Before that happens we should look closely at tradition. Is Sinderklaas and St Nicholas to pushed aside? Heaven forbid - we are intent on changing history. There have been many female saints throughout Christian time so, if there is a 'push' for bringing female tradition to the fore, go for it. You have my support as long as it is logical.
     
     In the religious context we celebrate the birth of Christ who was clearly a man. Yes, it seems he too had good women (and men) behind him.
     
     But please, do not attempt to change history because of feminism. Just get over it.

205. Dieter B - 20, November, 2011 (12:30)

     We spend most Christmases with my wife’s family at an average little caravan park in a country town in South Australia. We spend five weeks there which is far too long for my liking but it is a family tradition built over four generations so I have little choice in the matter. Most of them are very friendly people and we get on well enough together but there is little to do there when the January heat comes around.
     
     I like the idea of de-sexing Santa. There is no reason why he should get all the glory when it is most likely Mrs Claus doing all the hard work behind the front man. As front men go he does do a good job but I agree it is time to share the credit more fairly, not to mention the weight and health benefits if there is a sharing of the late night Santa snacks.
     
     
     

206. Kay Kelly - 20, November, 2011 (11:47)

     Onya, Robyn! The world is full of male-dominated roles - hip hip for Mrs Santa!
     
     Boy, it is like pulling teeth today! Where is everyone!

207. Robyn - 20, November, 2011 (11:30)

     Talking about gender roles, I have long thought it unfair that Santa Claus, symbol of great generosity and benevolence to children, is male. Women do tend to take on much of the load preparing for Xmas. I was always the real Santa when our kids were little. The tale is a hangover from a male dominated past. Give Mrs Claus an equal role in the fantasy I say!

208. Kay Kelly - 20, November, 2011 (9:56)

     (cont.)
     
     As a child it was always a family get-together in Armidale. Maybe meeting cousins I didn't know I had. Always very pleasant.

209. Kay Kelly - 20, November, 2011 (9:55)

     We usually make a pilgrimage to Sydney (from Brisbane) for Xmas/New Year. We go via Armidale, NSW, to see my mother and my rellies, then on to Sydney on the New England Highway. Lots to do in Sydney - children, grandchildren galore! Gifts to deliver. Maybe friends to visit as well. Boxing Day with the kids, grandkids at my ex-husband's house in Jamberoo - always a nice day. I enjoy Sydney, but after a couple of weeks we are glad to be on our own again! Back up the coast, sometimes a night in the Hunter vineyards, always a night in Port Macquarie, and on home! Visiting is great but gosh it is good to be home again!
     
     In February/March another trip down to Sydney - one daughter having her first baby at 43! Hope all goes well! We certainly had them younger in my day! There you go - a return to our theme of women's lives!
     
     

210. Bob B - 20, November, 2011 (9:07)

     cont....
     Alas, they have grown up and we ended up alternating with my daughter (and grand kids) in Adelaide us on the Gold Coast. On the Gold Coast we alternated with good friends (almost family). It worked well with good cheer and happy kids all about us with a pool and them near the bach. This year the good friends are with their daughter and grand kids in Newcastle, our daughter is in the middle of a renovation and very much restricted and son and his wife are in Canada for Christmas.
     
     We planned to go to a restaurant, the two of us, but a recent restrictive diet has put paid to that so we will be Darby and Joan. We are planning two nice meals turkey/ham etc for lunch and a seafood dinner at night. It will be a change but welcome or not is yet to be seen.

211. Helen - 20, November, 2011 (7:26)

     Good morning everyone!
     
     I agree our conv has got too deep! Everyone is missing in action too! Not a single insult or fight last night!!
     
     New topic - Xmas is coming up. What's happening in your domain. How many will be alone this Xmas. Some cooking ideas & presents???
     
     How does Xmas now differ from when you were a child?
     
     I'm going out & will check in when I get back
     Cheers all...

212. Kay Kelly - 20, November, 2011 (6:20)

     Gosh, this topic really is a fizzer! And I think we have run the course on MILs.
     
     Anyone like to suggest another breakaway topic that we can weave in between late 'women and changing roles' and 'MIL' comments?
     
     Lorikeet - where are you when we need you?

213. Robyn - 19, November, 2011 (17:14)

     WEG, Brian and Nottakeet,
     
     It was good to read your interesting views.
     WEG I think there may be something in what you say about the unhappiness of many women in the past because of disempowerment. Some women may have developed over-attachment to their sons and their own strange notions of power (over) precisely for that reason.

214. Robyn - 19, November, 2011 (17:07)

     Helen,
     I'm sorry if my last comment sounded a bit like advice. I do think there are many different factors dictating the dynamics in families and not everything needs to be discussed. Some close friends of mine have 2 sons, each with a partner.They are wonderful parents and generous of spirit, non intrusive and not controlling. One of their DILs is warm and affectionate and the other is quite distancing. I'm sure some DILs may feel threatened by the affection their partners have for their mother. Anyway, you sound like a lovely MIL to me. The bad ones like mine really stand out. They know what sort of trouble they are causing and it is deliberate.
     
     
     
     
     

215. Helen - 19, November, 2011 (13:24)

     contd. I know I can manage many things at the same time. I don't expect any of them to be like this & our ways are very different.
     
     I do believe we all have to achieve in our own way & not compare ourselves with others.
     
     I guess it is the old school v the new school, I know I couldn't live with them but am happy to assist when needed. We have a wonderful relationship with the GKs & they love to be with us. It's a great trade off really & much better than what I had when my children were growing up.
     
     Very deep & meaninful! - A scorcher here today 35deg Thank G for A/C...

216. Nottakeet - 19, November, 2011 (13:19)

     I find the MIL/FIL discussion fascinating. From a naturally inferior male point of view (wasn’t Adam the first prototype,so that Eve benefited from the lessons learnt?)it certainly appears as if MILs are much more antagonistic to those who marry their sons than to those who marry their daughters.
     
     Whoops – now my gender is revealed! What a shame. One aspect of my precious anonymity sacrificed.
     
     Anyway, one observation. I thought every man was taught that before marrying, have a good look at your future MIL. This is what your wife will become. I didn’t take that to heart the first time I married and I ended up in an ugly divorce. I should also have listened to my future FIL. The second time round I was considerably older and wiser. I couldn’t ask for a better wife, partner and friend or a better MIL.
     

217. helen - 19, November, 2011 (13:16)

     Perhaps with the ILs I had, I worry that they migh view me like that too. I tend to keep to myself & never get between any of them.
     
     We all get along fine, I just feel sometimes that in the end, there is no-one like their mum's & so just accept that. I really like their mums.
     
     I have a great relationship with our sons & I know they are very proud of me. I sometimes say to them, don't make something I am not as sometimes it's hard to live up to.
     
     Perhaps it is me as in the back of my mind I know that DILs can move on, daughters however are there forever & that is the truth. Sons's are too, we can't be possessive with any of them. I have my young sister & that's nice too as my surrogate daughter...

218. Robyn - 19, November, 2011 (11:25)

     Helen,
     
     I have 2 son-in-laws, both gorgeous people and great partners to my daughter and son (yes, one gay couple, been tog 12 years). Whenever any tension crops up we talk about it. For example, my daughter's husband does not like to be kissed or hugged on greeting so we have discussed this with humour and now send each other a blow kiss and a grin. We have had some misunderstandings at times, just as I have with my children at times, but we always talk through stuff. If you don't understand why your Dils are wary, maybe you can raise the subject with them (individually) in a non threatening way. This means being open to hearing anything confronting of course.
     
     We are so far off topic and although I have enjoyed some personal discussion, I hope other people are not being put off. I think I will shut up for a while now.

219. Brian Storm - 19, November, 2011 (11:24)

     This is an interesting discussion of mothers-in-law. My MIL and I always got on well. I was off to a good start because we both followed the same football team, but that was just a superficial point. I wonder if is something to do with gender. MILs don’t see sons-in-law as a potential rival or threat or whatever in the same way they see daughters-in-law. As the old saying goes “your son is a son till he finds a wife, your daughter is your daughter all of her life”. I really don’t know. It’s just a thought.
     
     I got on well with my father-in-law as well and my wife was a big hit with my parents. My MIL developed dementia and lived with us for her last two years. Dementia is a terrible disease and my wife suffered terribly as her mum went downhill but at least we could be close to her as she drifted away from us.
     

220. Bob B - 19, November, 2011 (11:07)

     Kay, thankyou, we all have those days.

221. Kay Kelly - 19, November, 2011 (11:04)

     Helen
     
     I get on particularly well with both daughters-in-law, although they couldn't be more different from each other. They don't like each other, either.
     
     In fact, I am the 'peacemaker' in the family - between my children, between DILs, and between my children and their father.

222. WEG - 19, November, 2011 (11:00)

     I never had an inkling of trouble with my MIL / FIL (PIL) ever.
     My parents had 5 children (2 sets of twins 14 months apart plus one other).
     Interesting to note, most of the issues raised on this blog relate to MIL.
     Maybe it was a reflection on women’s life struggles last century.
     Living was not easy back then. We all have a cross to bear.
     Maybe we’ve laid a good foundation so our daughters and granddaughters will have a better quality of life.
     Maybe not.

223. Kay Kelly - 19, November, 2011 (10:57)

     Bob
     Sorry - I meant I was "wrong again"! I seem to be stuffing up everything this morning!!!
     
     I think I will go back to bed and start the day all over again! Must be all that MIL talk that has addled my brain!

224. Helen - 19, November, 2011 (10:49)

     contd. My Mother adored my husband but hated all her other SILs, which was a bit unfare as he paid her no mind at all really.
     
     She also died from dementia two yrs ago & even though she didn't know who he was, loved him to bits here too to the end. My dad was the same & also never liked his other SILs.
     
     It's a strange subject. After all the hassles with my ILs, I have tried to be different. I don't have a daughter but do have a sister who is 26yrs younger than me & younger than my youngest son, & we are very close (she thinks I'm great), so I should be thankful for small mercies. I am a strong believer in the "blood is thicker than water bit"...

225. Helen - 19, November, 2011 (10:42)

     I am a MIL now. I try to be a good one & stay out of my children's lives as far as personal issues are concerned.
     
     I'm always there for everyone with a phone call & am always asked to mind children. Sometimes I have them all from both sides at the same time, & they are only littlies.
     Still, I can tell my DILs are wary of me & I sense this.
     
     Why is it that MILs are all supposed to be ogours. I don't think I am. I do say what I think particularly if anyone tries to organise me. Sometimes I get the feeling that I am being used here too & only wanted around because of certain expertise that I possess (& it's all a bit of a one way street).
     
     Do any of you others have this feeling too? FILs can do anything & it's OK. Have you ever noticed this?...

226. Bob B - 19, November, 2011 (10:28)

     Kay Kelly
     
     I guess it depends on what browser you use. I use Internet Explorer and it is definitely available as long as you have the Menu Bar activated. Just go up to the menu bar area at the top, right press the mouse and a box with the available bars appears so just tick Menu Bar to activate. What other browsers do I can help as I not familiar with them.
     
     You could use Help normally available in software packages at F1 and search cut and paste.
     
     Wrong again!! Please, that's inflamatory language I have not risen to!!!

227. Kay Kelly - 19, November, 2011 (9:35)

     Bob
     
     Wrong again! The cut and paste is not normally available, but does come up when doing a new email! I think I will just retire in disgrace for the day!

228. Bob B - 19, November, 2011 (9:25)

     Just to change from MIL to FIL, my FIL is as I said at his funeral - If one has to have a FIL in life, he is the one to have. Never saw him lose his cool, sharp word or two occasionally when severely tested, would do anything to support his children and grandchildren and loved having a chat over a beer.
     
     I was the only one able to get information out of him about his more severe WW2 experiences. He told his own children the lesser things. I did this in assembling his life story as I have done for the Family Tree.

229. Kay Kelly - 19, November, 2011 (9:20)

     Bob:
     
     Yes, how stupid of me! I use cut and paste all the time, but hadn't checked to see it was in my 'Edit' drop-down box all along!! I am used to using an email program that doesn't have cut and paste (or maybe I just haven't found it yet). Now I feel like an idiot!

230. Bob B - 19, November, 2011 (9:20)

     cont...
     
     FIL confided one day after some of her antics when he and I escaped to the pub that the first 20 years were good but after that it got progressively worse. When he retired at the family celebration for that she said out loud that as he had done nothing in the house he had it all from now on. In reality he was a good man about the house.

231. Bob B - 19, November, 2011 (9:19)

     Cont...
     
     She never let the chance go by that I took her daughter away from her. I was in the RAAF and of course we move around but that didn't stop her. Even demented in a high care unit she was difficult for the staff. My wife didn't not let her go to her husband's funeral for fear of family dispute. She was third last of 12 children and in constant conflict with one or more of her siblings. It was probably an act seeking recognition in her childhood that she never grew out off. Sad really because she did have a sweet side I saw in early courtship.
     
     cont...

232. Bob B - 19, November, 2011 (9:18)

     Back in the 1990's on a rare occassion that MIL and FIL stayed with us over christmas, on christmas day she just blurted out with about 16 or so around the table 'Christopher (my son) you will come to nothing in you life, you are a failure'. He was in early to mid high school at the time.
     
     Later when watching the cricket she asked her husband a question about cricket and then sought my support to disagree with him. I couldn't do that because he was right. She manipulated that into a super rage to the point that my wife changed their flight home to later that day and they never stayed with us again. They lived in Melbourne and we in Canberra.
     
     cont...

233. Bob B - 19, November, 2011 (9:01)

     Kay Kelly
     
     Its called 'cut' and 'paste'. You can use the mouse and the pull down edit box as well. The control 'x' and 'p' are shortcuts as is control 'c' for copy. There are many others ans its possibly worth a google to find out those that suit you.
     
     Helen
     
     If only I had the skills to make a grandfather clock. My limit is simple furniture like a bookcase. You are indeed blessed for those sorts of skills are rare indeed today.

234. Robyn - 19, November, 2011 (8:39)

     The worst injury these MILs cause is to their own son/s who then spend a lot of their adult years trying to disentangle themselves from all of the emotional enmeshment. My hubby got there too with the help of our adult kids who saw right through her. He was able to hear from them what he found hard to hear from me.

235. Robyn - 19, November, 2011 (8:14)

     Oh Kay, I wish I had known you back when the letters were arriving. What great grumbles we could have had together! The European connection is interesting, maybe there is something in that. I have heard of some awful Australian in-laws too though.

236. Robyn - 19, November, 2011 (7:59)

     I put up with her s..t for many years for the sake of the kids (she was a good nanna to them in many ways) but finally snapped on Xmas day 2007 and told her exactly what I thought of her. Also told her I would never have her come to live with us when she gets old enough to need care. She has been nicer to me ever since! I long ago decided she has narcissistic personality disorder and is possibly psychopathic.

237. Kay Kelly - 19, November, 2011 (7:55)

     Robyn:
     
     Yes, my ex-MIL wrote countless long letters in German to my ex-husband about me - how terrible I was etc etc etc. She forgot I could read German and didn't realise my husband showed them all to me. Is it something about European MILs?

238. Robyn - 19, November, 2011 (7:46)

     It was impossible to work through or discuss anything with my MIL. She had all sorts of tricks ranging from telling lies, going hysterical, cutting me off for years, trying to turn my husband and children against me. She used to write letters to my husband in Polish and send them to his workplace, running me down etc. She told him that he should love her more than me because she was his mother and that he should not show me any affection because "it was not manly". She was furious when she found out he told me about them. She told our children that she gave them each a large sum of money when they were babies (she didn't!) and that we spent it on ourselves. I could go on and on but I won't bore you with all the horrid details. To be continued.

239. Kay Kelly - 19, November, 2011 (7:44)

     Lorikeet:
     
     Thank you very much for your advice on how to avoid deleting and retyping the end of a comment that exceeds 160 words. Being a 'mouse click' person, I was not aware of the old function controls.
     
     So thank you for educating me on this!

240. Kay Kelly - 19, November, 2011 (7:40)

     (cont.)
     
     And so it went - year after year until the children were old enough to visit her with their father, but without me!
     
     Interestingly enough, my ex-husband now sees what she is like and doesn't want to have anything to do with her. He has now admitted how much trouble she caused, and tried to cause, in our relationship. Even my children see how she tries to manipulate them.
     
     At least I have always had a good relationship with my mother.

241. Kay Kelly - 19, November, 2011 (7:31)

     Helen:
     
     I'm starting to wonder if we had the same German MIL!! Sounds like the same woman! The classic manipulator.
     
     My ex-MIL hated me from the beginning too. I took her beloved only son away from her control (to a certain extent) and my hair was naturally blonde, whereas hers was black/brown. How could her son choose someone who didn't resemble his beloved mother? Sounds crazy, I know, but she did carry on at our first meeting about how disappointed she was that I was a blonde! Then, later, I breastfed my children - so she sneaked my month-old daughter out of her bassinet (on our first 'baby' visit to her) and started giving her a bottle (yes, she had purchased one in advance) of the same rolled oats/milk brew she had raised her two children on (she didn't believe in breastfeeding because she didn't do it herself).

242. Helen - 19, November, 2011 (7:23)

     Bob - you sound wonderful. My hubby makes beautiful things even with Parkinson's. I guess one cancells out the other. He just built me the most exsquisite "Grandfather clock".
     
     I photographed one I saw in Germany this year & he made it! How good is that!!

243. Helen - 19, November, 2011 (7:19)

     To cut to the chase - On one occasion, I had to take her for a blood test & the girl asked if she was my mother & I said no, my MIL, whereon she said " No, she is not my DIL, she is my daughter! Well, I nearly passed out on the spot.
     
     My MIL lived till she was 90yrs old & demanded until her passing. The director in the RH retired after her passing & I often wondered if she had anything to do with it. She was a very stressful & difficult person but believe it or not, I never hated her. I should have, but I didn't. She wasn't much of a G/M either...

244. Helen - 19, November, 2011 (7:14)

     My FIL had dementia in his later yrs & my MIL tried to look after him at home because she was jealous of the nursing home staff (he thought he was in one of THOSE houses & only spoke German in the end (it was really hillarious). It upset her so she took him home.
     He got out early one morning & got hit with a car (very sad) & ended his life with tubes everywhere & being peg fed.
     My MIL went on to break her hip twice & had to go into care. Again it was me who looked after her & played advocate for her - contd

245. Helen - 19, November, 2011 (7:08)

     Good morning all!
     We are talking MILs now. I had a beaut! She hated me from the beginning because I took her only son away from her. I also had a mind of my own & wouldn't let her organise me. She was German & very "bossy".
     
     When she was sick, guess who looked after her (me!). After one op, she just didn't seem to get better. I was collecting washing & going over & doing her cleaning. Remember I had a job & children as well.
     After a few months I was starting to wonder. Whenever I asked how she was, her eyes would all cloud over & she looked like she was one step away from the grave.
     
     One day I went there & found she was out with her daughter SHOPPING!!I was furious & felt really used - contd

246. Robyn - 19, November, 2011 (6:51)

     We all muddle our way through, bearing different physical and emotional loads at different times. Most who have spoken are expressing the warm glow of having rich relationships with their adult children, in-laws and grandchildren. Isn't it great to get to this "older" stage of life feeling the joy of deep connection with loved ones? The rotten MILs didn't know how to begin to connect with anyone. There is the "I" (know best, am above you, etc etc) and the "eye" (no words for that but it seems to be located in the heart area) which will direct caring, respectful communication and sensitivity between people. Conflict is inevitable since it arises from expression of difference (needs, values etc). As Laurakeet highlighted, being able to discuss and work through our differences is all part of loving communication.
     

247. Bob B - 18, November, 2011 (22:17)

     Just one more.
     When my mother died in 1987, my MIL's granddaughter gave me a big hug and said 'the Lord took the wrong woman, Uncle Bob.' Quite touching and I will never forget those words. My mother was a true lady by comparison.

248. Bob B - 18, November, 2011 (22:13)

     Robyn
     
     I let it slide years ago after many purges. Don't have any emotion for her at all now.

249. Laurakeet - 18, November, 2011 (21:11)

     Robyn and Kay, we did have our differences, as I did with my own mother when I was growing up. They were both confident and intelligent women. The good thing was they were both willing to listen and to discuss any problems without the discussion deteriorating into anything nasty. I have to admit I was at fault sometimes as well but I could always talk to them both. They got on well with each other too which was a big bonus for us. They both died some years ago but I still miss them very much.
     
     It wasn’t all rosy with my girls either. They each in turn went through those terrible mid-teen years where we were the worst parents in the world and they could barely stand talking to us. Fortunately they came out the other side and are now well adjusted loving adults. Or perhaps we have improved as parents and learned much since those turbulent days?
     

250. Robyn - 18, November, 2011 (19:34)

     Kay,
     
     Same here. I doubt that we needed their modeling though to become better MIL's ourselves. I'm sure we had our problems with them because we weren't like them in the first place.
     
     Laurakeet,
     
     Enjoyed your comments. They were not at all boring. I wish I had a mother-in-law like yours.

251. Kay Kelly - 18, November, 2011 (19:14)

     Robyn:
     
     Maybe we should start our own little blog on the side about MILs!! But the good thing is that my ex-MIL provided an excellent model for me - how NOT to behave as a MIL. Thanks to my ex-MIL's excellent model, I can report that I get on extremely well with all my sons-in-law and daughters-in-law. I can assure you I am not at all like that lovely German lady! So there is a silver lining to every horrible experience!!

252. Laurakeet - 18, November, 2011 (18:17)

     I should also say that possessions are not the most important thing. When I was growing up my parents were full of love and encouragement, as my husband and I have been with our girls. Part of being a parent is to help your children without being intrusive. It is a fine line but most of the time we seem to get the balance right (touch wood). I could talk to my mother and my mother-in-law and my daughters can talk to me. It helps develop an understanding across the generations.
     
     
     

253. Laurakeet - 18, November, 2011 (18:14)

     We did not have it easy in the early days but we did not struggle as much as some did. I look back on those times with some degree of rose coloured glasses. Life was good then and it is now. It was different, as it will be different in 20 years time. I don’t know that young women these days have it any easier or harder than I did. Times change and so do the situations. I suppose my message is that you do not have to be locked into specific gender roles in life. I even think that more and more men do not expect women to do the housework and the “barefoot and pregnant” thing anymore.
     
     I’m sorry for writing so much and I hope it hasn’t been boring. I agree with the calls to lift the 160 word limit because this is an important subject that should be taken very seriously. Thank you.
     
     

254. Laurakeet - 18, November, 2011 (18:13)

     Cut through to my marriage in the late 1970s. My husband already had a degree and a good job and I was working. But interest rates were very high and we also lived with used furniture when we started out. There is nothing wrong with that as I often tell my girls. Again we had no specific gender roles. We would both cook and clean and when we bought our first home we shared the maintenance of the place. He likes tennis and I like ice skating so we have our individual pursuits which are necessary for any couple.
     
     Cut through again to our daughters. Two married, one in a relationship. They are all independently minded women who have made good lives for themselves. I can’t speak for them but they all seem to be happy with their choices in life.
     

255. Laurakeet - 18, November, 2011 (18:12)

     My parents lived in a garage for the first five years of their marriage. They owned the land but could not at first build a house. I lived in the garage until I was two when my sisters were born and a house became essential. This was in the 1950s and I remember we had furniture that was given or loaned to us but gradually my parents filled the house with what they wanted.
     
     My dad always worked and my mum had a number of casual jobs. We pre-school girls spent many happy hours with our grandparents on both sides when we were young. As we grew our mum continued working and both parents shared the housework and cooking. There were no specific gender roles and we did not think there was anything unusual with that. It made us self-reliant in our school years and gave us an independent perspective as adults.
     

256. Lorikeet - 18, November, 2011 (17:32)

     A man I know had exactly the right technique to get out of doing the cooking. He made the biggest mess he could possibly manage and neither his mother nor his wife would let him loose in the kitchen again. Bad strategy, ladies!
     
     Jane Turnbull makes an excellent point about the connection between 2 parents working and then having to pay double the price for everything.
     
     This situation has been deliberately orchestrated by successive governments since the introduction of the contraceptive pill in 1961 gave women greater personal freedom.
     
     

257. Robyn - 18, November, 2011 (17:18)

     Hi Sue,
     Good to know you're still out there sweetie. Don't worry about the commas - we can handle punctuation madness on this blog. Besides, it was very early morning hours when they all went wrong - bleary eyes and all that, we understand. All will be right again when you get your new glasses.
     
     Bob and Kay,
     MIL is my favourite purging topic. Yes, LET'S GO FOR IT!!! No MIL could be worse than my MIL. Control freak ++++++++!
     

258. Lorikeet - 18, November, 2011 (17:15)

     If your comment is too long, just highlight the second half of it and hit "Control x". Submit the first half of your comment and then when you get a new box, hit "Control v" and the rest of your comment will reappear.

259. Kay Kelly - 18, November, 2011 (16:55)

     Bob:
     
     I think you've just suggested our 'breakaway' topic - Mothers-in-law!! I could go on and on about my ex-MIL - a German control freak! There was only one way to do everything - only one way to cook, only one way to bring up the kids, etc etc etc. And guess what - it was her way! She never had a paying job and hence it was a crime when I did. But because I worked, my kids all learned how to house-keep, cook, wash & iron. So they are all really handy around the house.

260. Sue Do-Nim - 18, November, 2011 (16:50)

     Hi Robyn:
     Sorry I didn’t get back here sooner.
     So much to do.Busy.Busy.Busy.
     Thanks for the concern.
     There’s not much I can add.
     It’s all been said. So very well.
     This posting is very difficult to write.
     I am afraid to use a comma!
     Looks like you’ve seen through me.
     Yes. You’ve guessed correctly…... I’m not a mother.
     

261. Bob B - 18, November, 2011 (16:40)

     Kay
     
     I had to learn that one many years ago. In my MIL's eyes if it wasn't done her way it was wrong. She really never came to terms with 'No, it's just different'. Interestingly, if she didn't see it done the result was good and she said so but if she saw it done it was wrong. She learned over many years just to tolerate my difference.

262. Robyn - 18, November, 2011 (16:25)

     Kay,
     
     What you have said sums it all up in a nutshell! I actually find myself feeling a little resistant to the topic questions, comparing today with yesterday. Maybe others are feeling this way too.

263. Kay Kelly - 18, November, 2011 (16:15)

     Yes, it is all sweetness and light today! Come on guys - out of hiding, please! And I thought Berlusconi was a fizzer of a topic!
     
     Anyway, I'm sure every generation despaired of the next generation - 'what will become of the world' etc. But things change, and today things change very rapidly, sometimes for the 'better' and sometimes for the 'worse'. 'Better' and 'worse' are both highly subjective descriptors. I just love Jane's quote, "The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there". That's how it is!
     
     I'm sure each generation will manage to muddle through, just like we did! But they will do it very differently! Not 'better', not 'worse', just differently!

264. Bob B - 18, November, 2011 (16:12)

     Helen, Robyn
     
     No I am not red faced at all.
     
     We shared out the work me mainly outside putting in paths and garden edging establishing lawns etc etc. Then looking after kids and cooking meals before mum came home to sit down to the evening meals maybe with or sometimes later. If it had to be done my provence was mainly outside and hers inside by mutual choice. We never sat watching each other and even pitched in and helped each other during times of stress.
     
     I was even a home dad after I was made redundant and said I would do it all. She chose to cook weekends and do the washing. I did all the rest including ironing. If it need sto be done do it is our motto. We have time out her reading and me fishing.
     
     No, not red faced, just blissfully happy.

265. Robyn - 18, November, 2011 (16:04)

     WEG, do you know where Sue is?

266. Robyn - 18, November, 2011 (15:55)

     My husband fell into that category Helen. He was a very spoiled only child. Inch by inch over 40 years he has crept into domestic "sort of" equality but essentially he prefers to hang out in the garden. Today he cleaned all of the windows so I shouldn't complain. He does all of his own washing, ironing and a lot of the cooking but he has NEVER cleaned a toilet! He also appears to not notice dust and dirt.
     
     I didn't think this topic would appeal to the men much but it is early days. Russel, Bob B, Jim and WEG have showed up but where is Sue?

267. Helen - 18, November, 2011 (15:11)

     Yes Robyn. It seems more difficult than Berlusconis, CT/ETS & all the others. All missing in action.
     
     There are NO fights, what's wrong!! I even agreed with many of Lorikeet's comments earlier, good grief what is happening!! Our blog is coming apart & it's only Friday!
     
     Where are all the delightful gents whoes comments are so much appreciated (are you all hiding with red faces). Does the subject matter make you cringe or could it be that you didn't help much in the house & are one of those mentioned.
     
     My husband was & is a good worker but was brought up as an only son & can't do housework at all (& doesn't want to learn). His sisters got landed with all the work. How many senior men fall into this category?...

268. Robyn - 18, November, 2011 (14:38)

     I wonder if Sue Do-Nim is going to share any "mothering" experiences with us? Are you out there Sweet Sue?

269. Helen - 18, November, 2011 (13:49)

     Life style choices are so varied too -
     Two parents -
     single parents of either sex -
     Gay couples -
     This must make new problems for the future. Problems we have never heard of especially for the children.
     
     I guess it is not for us to be critical. The proof will be in our adults of the future & how THEY cope with this changing world.
     
     Where are our usuals? - They are all missing in action today!...

270. Helen - 18, November, 2011 (13:40)

     Where some come "unstuck" these days in my opinion is when families break up & parents have to start all over again. It is so common.
     
     Trouble seems to happen when the children arrive. there are some who remarry or start a new relationship + children & a mortgage in their forties & older & still have to support first families.
     
     What kind of problems are they going to have later on with retrenchments, illness + a growing family for many...
     
     

271. Pat thompson - 18, November, 2011 (13:18)

     I have worked all my adult life , except for 6 weeeks with both child. I have always worked full thime , as an RN, and now a num. On call , weekends, days , nights, the whole gammut. would not change anything. yes it was tought at times, but both my children ( 20 and 16) have sustained 3 jobs whilst at school and now are doing us both proud. on top of this full time work i have also bred, shown and judged western horses ....for FUN.
     we give of ourselves and the product is well balanced , articulate, honest children. my family did it tought as did our forefathers, so will my grandchildren and on. FOr different reasons.

272. Helen - 18, November, 2011 (11:13)

     Denise you said it all! Jane it's not about saying it was better. Some problems are different but we had problems too. My parents thought they had it harder & my granparents had it harder again.
     
     My dad's older sister gave birth to 6 of her 8 children at home while everyone sat outside. My uncle the only one & later the older children to help. They had no power or water, TV etc & not until their retirement did they have power. My Aunt had a little generated power each evening & could run a very small TV (when she was already an old lady) & was in strife one day for becoming hooked on the days of our life.
     My uncle was furious with her because she let the stove go out & tried to light it with the fridge & put it out too. I could write a book just on them!...

273. Denise Barth - 18, November, 2011 (10:25)

     I hope I have set a great example to them that working hard and being a good honest citizen is all that matters, we didn't have the latest equipment, furniture or mod cons but managed to have great holidays on limited budgets. there is no one generation that has it harder than the next as it is all so different. I consider my greatest achievement is my three wonderful daughters. My parents weren't able to baby sit much they did what they can so i just had to manage, school holidays were the worst when I had to work, it was hard to organise them. But you know I wouldn't have had it any other way. I am one very proud Mum and Grandma!

274. Denise Barth - 18, November, 2011 (10:24)

     I came from a middle class family where mum stayed home and dad went to work in the 60's. I married early and became a single Mum with three children, in my 30's, yes I struggled to bring them up on my own, I worked hard and they have all turned out very well and now are married with families of their own one daughter has three children under five her and her husband run two businesses, all my daughters are working Mums and yes I am still working,

275. Jane Turnbull - 18, November, 2011 (10:18)

     It is pointless to keep saying that it was much better when we were young, because we worked harder, did more with less, were happy to live in a cardboard box etc etc.
     "The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there".
     The first industry to recognise the value of women's work, was the real estate industry. House prices rose in line with women's wages, so in simplistic industry thinking, two wages = double the price = double my income! Fantastic! That is the elephant in the room.

276. Helen - 18, November, 2011 (10:09)

     Cont. What I am saying is that is wasn't really that different but I do think we were all emotionally stronger in how we dealt with things & didn't expect as much immediatly.
     
     I do think think that couples are more stressed because they are trying to learn skills not learnt whilst growing up.
     
     they have much smaller families & are much older in the majority of cases (some are choosing to have no families). there are more broken marriages with duel households & kids going back & forth. this is different.
     
     It is considered "the norm" to come from a dual household these days & I often wonder how todays children will cope with all this when they grow up & what their attitudes will be towards marriage & the value of it. Attitudes are changing on lot's of fronts (a discussion in itself) Must get back to work...

277. Helen - 18, November, 2011 (9:59)

     Bob you prove my point. Your children saw that you had to work hard to get ahead & you came from a family with the same ethos.
     
     Years ago people would live in garages & build their home in due course. We lived in a flat, worked really hard & paid the last payment on our land when my first son was 5ths old. We the built a small portion of our house (ourselves) & moved in. My sons were 10 & 8 before they had a real bed room of their own. It did no eternal harm to them to see us work hard all our lives.
     
     We enjoy the fruits now & the closeness of family ties being our reward...
     
     

278. Jim - 18, November, 2011 (9:56)

     Having grown up on a farm - it was clear that my mother's contribution to the farm was equal to a full time labour unit - that was 60 years ago - what has changed? However I take the point that it takes two incomes to keep the modern family afloat, financially; our expectations (Material goods, education) are extensive in year 2011. I admire modern couples who handle this, and do a competent job in the ever-demanding workplace.

279. Bob B - 18, November, 2011 (9:29)

     cont...
     
     We learned to live within our means which at one stage had me give up smoking and was rationed to just one beer a week. But we did it quite happily and it wasn't seen to be a big struggle. I actually enjoyed balancing the budget and seeing it work as planned doing a lot of the manual stuff myself. I had a home building licence at one stage so I could do things myself. We planned our few holidays and other luxuries. We were happy. We were a 'nuclear' family supporting our selves and holding our place in society.
     
     Both my son and daughter live with their spouses, one with two children at school, but both share the workload at home. My son-in-law is very self sufficient - had to be as a child and is a dynamo in the house, nothing is ever too much and he is a good dad to.
     
     

280. Bob B - 18, November, 2011 (9:29)

     Cont...
     
     As a child my mother, an RN, worked nightshift so we were with a parent when at home. There was a short break until my sister went to school and I was carer, with mom asleep in the house, after school.
     
     When I married, my wife worked, an RN also, until we had children and then when she was happy I could care for a baby nightshift was the go.
     
     Later we had a very good friend we paid for childcare whilst my wife worked day shift. My wife would drop the kids off in the morning and I would pick them up after work. Later in life both of us with two kids each at school 'the girls' convinced Ipswich Hospital to job share a job with child caring after school being done my the mother not working that day. Each worked five days a fortnight. It worked really well for quite a few years.
     
     cont...

281. Bob B - 18, November, 2011 (9:27)

     Other than the first short entry it's all female comment, I feel I have to comment.
     
     We all choose our lifestyle and if our wants are high then that demands a high two income family. In saying this, I recognise that housing is a big issue driving two income households and this has a less than ideal impact on child bearing. Other things impact as well today also with a greater wish than we had for material possessions. There is little expectation that some things come later in life.
     
     We brought our children up and in someway are responsible for their outlook. Why do they need everything now? I have to say my daughter has the outlook we had and things come gradually in her family.
     
     Cont....

282. WEG - 18, November, 2011 (9:24)

     Interesting report. So much data though and quite subjective commentary especially where behaviours are involved.
     Each person in the household / workplace / society has a role to play regardless of gender and status.
     'Life's not meant to be easy, but take courage child for it can be delightful” - quote from ‘Back to Methuselah by George Bernard Shaw’.
     At the end of the day it is the success and of the partnership, relationships, family etc. that brings the joy. That’s the reward.
     
     Today we have many things to do, and so much technology to do it with. Is it better place to be? Yes, I think so, but we must strive to do better.
     

283. Robyn - 18, November, 2011 (9:23)

     Moderator,
     
     I support Kay's request. Only 6 people have contributed so far and already we are up to comment 26. That says a lot!

284. Kay Kelly - 18, November, 2011 (7:56)

     Moderator:
     
     Please review the 160 word limit! I can't see that it achieves anything other than to make our comments very disjointed! All us regulars end up posting a string of separate postings anyhow. The final insult to us is that there is no word count as you type, so we have no idea when we reach the limit! That results in us having to delete whole paragraphs and retype in the next posting, or, playing safe and posting a string of shorter comments.
     
     Please reconsider. Thank you.

285. Helen - 18, November, 2011 (7:44)

     It was hard Kay but something that we "just did". My husband's parents were migrants & my parents from poor farming families so we knew we couldn't ask for help. they all worked too & we lived a long way away from each other so there was not the help I for instance now give to my own family (looking after children etc).
     
     We were happy though & have a wonderful & close relationship with our children.
     
     My motto is "When we are young we can't see over the hill" It means that we are more flexible when we are young & just get on with things.
     
     The experiences I gained has helped me do what I do now too. Besides our experience is worth a fortune now to this generation of parents. What would they do without us!
     
     It all sounds dramatic, but would we have changed anything...

286. Helen - 18, November, 2011 (7:30)

     I think too that in yrs gone bye, we were willing to do whatever it took re a job when money was needed until the time came when we could resume prev careers. I worked with many mothers whoes training was way above their job at the time.
     
     We were also lucky to have had more hands on when growing up & more was expected of us at home. To be fair to todays parents, many sixties & seventies children didn't have to do anything at home (for whatever reason). This make everything really hard when suddenly they are saddled with a job & a family with all the stresses etc.
     
     I guess for many not showing the way is our generation's failure really even if it was well intentioned. "I won't make them do what I had to do syndrome"
     
     Great subject this week...

287. Robyn - 18, November, 2011 (7:30)

     Isn't this 160 word limit a pain? It's muddling all our comments up.

288. Kay Kelly - 18, November, 2011 (7:29)

     Robyn, Helen:
     
     Yes, I consider myself lucky that I did not have to go to work while my children were little. Of course, we had little, but costs were not quite so high in that there were no expectations to have a flash house, 2 cars, the latest furniture/electronics, holidays etc. And we didn't even buy disposable nappies! My MIL bought German baby clothes (strumpelhosen) and muslin nappies (no pins) for me, so that helped. And I consider that I was lucky that I never got used to two incomes (I married from uni). Helen, it must have been very stressful to work those long hours just to survive.

289. Helen - 18, November, 2011 (7:21)

     contd. I do think being young def helps. Being in one's thirties means that parents are more rigid (& selfish) & often not willing to change life styles to fit in with children.
     
     Babies can't read baby books & often don't fit expectations when they are very small. They are often viewed as a "novelty" too as something one must have before one misses out!
     
     Many mothers don't iron or cook & struggle with house work & their men folk help with everything in the house.
     
     I believe except in some societies where tradition is still the same, the boot is on the other foot. I sometimes wonder why men marry at all.
     
     This should be a cue for the men.
     
     I worry that living skills are not being taught now & passed down. I could talk for hrs on this subject...

290. Helen - 18, November, 2011 (7:09)

     contd. We ran a business as well & I had to do the book work. I pref to work at night & evenings because I had to do all the school bit as my husband left by 7am & didn't get home until I had to leave. Dinner was ready, children bathed & all my work done.
     
     I was not a "super mum", just a mum dedicated to bringing up my family & doing what was necessary. When you think we mums from our era had cloth nappies, ironed & cooked, shopped & went without to educate & bring up our children. It is only now that my children are noticing my efforts as it was all taken for granted.

291. Robyn - 18, November, 2011 (7:07)

     Continued
     
     Having choice around such a vital decision is, I think, essential to mental health. The lack of choice for so many women these days is a huge loss, even if their partners do share the domestic load.

292. Robyn - 18, November, 2011 (7:04)

     I think that full time parenting is under-estimated and under-valued by our society. In the 1970's many women were able to choose between full/part time or no work. The high cost of housing these days has removed that choice for a large percentage of women.
     
     I worked full time from when my first child was 2 months old because my husband was at Uni full time. I had a fabulous job and was given promotional at age 21 that gave me a higher wage than many men were receiving in 1971. However, I was quite depressed. All I wanted to do was look after my baby full time. When I had my 2nd and 3rd child I was able to choose not to work and felt happier because I was living in accordance with my own values. By the time my youngest child started school I actually wanted to return to work and study.
     
     

293. Helen - 18, November, 2011 (7:03)

     My mother worked 5 1/2 days a week from 10am-6pm. My dad was a shift worker & helped look after us & did some H/work & cooking. Mum went back to work when we reached 2yrs old & she had 3 children by age 25.
     
     I had two children by age 24, worked up until the last six wks & went back to work when my youngest was 6mths old.
     
     When I had the children I worked at night Wed, Fri-Sun until the baby was 3yrs old (in restaurants until 2am) as it was all I could get to fit in with the children. My oldest was up & 5am & my youngest quite sick when he was little so I got very little sleep for some yrs. After that time & for many yrs I worked with doctors until they were grown.
     contd.

294. Kay Kelly - 18, November, 2011 (6:21)

     Lorikeet, Jennifer:
     
     Whilst not wanting to buy into any of the points you have made, reading through your comments made me feel quite depressed! You do cover some issues like child custody problems of which I, luckily, have no experience. But I must say I did not feel 'put upon' by society when I was raising my children. We had a tiny, scholarship-based income initially, and I had 4 children aged 5 and under when I was 25. I was busy all day cleaning, cooking and caring, but I can't say it ever occurred to me that I had a hard life. I had made a decision to choose this life and I accepted the outcomes of my decision. We did not receive any allowances or such from the government.

295. Lorikeet - 18, November, 2011 (5:44)

     Congratulations to the NSA for highlighting rising living costs that greatly exceed both income increases and inflation.
     
     This problem is largely due to the government collecting indirect taxes, including 10% GST on just about every product and service.
     
     Before this type of "covert" taxation started eating away at purses and wallets, low income earners were not required to pay any direct taxes to the Australian Taxation Office.
     
     Privatisation of the people's income earning assets and utilities has resulted in poorer wages and working conditions, greater costs for service recipients, the financial empowerment of corporate enterprises at the expense of the public purse, and high rates of indirect taxation to make up the government shortfall.
     
     I think many individuals and families are suffering financially, regardless of their age.

296. Lorikeet - 18, November, 2011 (5:32)

     Jennifer:
     
     You made some interesting points.
     
     Single mothers and divorced parents with less than 4 children have to do either paid or voluntary work for 15 hours per week, when their youngest child turns 6.
     
     The rules have also changed for married women. If they want to continue receiving the small Parenting Payment at the married rate, the same rules apply to them.
     
     In Australia, the gender discrepancy pertaining to pay rates is greater than most other countries in the western world.
     
     You would certainly be correct in thinking that the Child Support Agency now financially discriminates in favour of men.
     
     The negative changes discussed here were all brought in by John Howard (Liberals), but Labor/Greens have done nothing to change the status quo for women. Both parties are locking women into working for the whole of their lives.

297. Jennifer - 17, November, 2011 (21:04)

     None of the hardships can be blamed on the current government as attitudes and values haven't changed much since early convict days when convict women were only granted 'freedom' if they married. Today many of us are still conditioned to think in a similar way, to carry the same values and attitudes that have been passed on. There are many social constructs still in place that enable the continuation of oppression of women to remain part of the status quo.
     So, no...women don't have it easier, and even Julia faces demands unequaled.

298. Jennifer - 17, November, 2011 (21:03)

     Financial abuse is also rampant in government systems supposedly supporting children yet in fact turn a blind eye on the reality of struggling mums with kids while allowing many men to be free from financial hardship and to get on with their careers,social life, and building of personal wealth.
     Women also lose status on many fronts on becoming a parent. Our legal system still holds it that the father has the overriding say on matters of where women and children can reside as the laws are made that children must be allowed to have access to their father....this is true even when abuse is occurring.
     

299. Jennifer - 17, November, 2011 (21:02)

     The Howard government introduced govt' policy that enforced that single mothers HAD to work at least 15 hours per week or be punished by losing the 'poverty-line' pension. Slavery and early convict day values exists in our so-called 'free', 'modern' Aussie world.

300. Jennifer - 17, November, 2011 (21:00)

     Women with children are an unrecognised group when it comes to equal rights and many, especially single mums, are doing it tough and are not only time poor, but financially, socially, professionally, and spiritually poor. The hours women spend on 'work' in the home goes without reward. An insurance company has recently recognised the costs of all of the things women are expected to do unpaid and without professional recognition, and are cashing in on the growing awareness of what happens if a woman can no longer do the tasks that are commonly taken on in their many roles.
     
     

301. Lorikeet - 17, November, 2011 (19:39)

     These days I think living costs are such that most couples cannot afford to have a parent at home full-time, unless the man is a high income earner.
     
     I think young people should be encouraged to save money, instead of blowing it all on expensive items and overseas trips.
     
     This is the main element of the Singapore model of superannuation which I find attractive: saving 25% of your income and then using it to buy your home. This might encourage people to get married at a younger age and have children before they have excessive income to spoil them.
     
     It would also be beneficial to the Age Pyramid.

302. Lorikeet - 17, November, 2011 (19:37)

     Some men do quite a bit in the garden and/or house. I made sure my 3 sons knew how to vacuum, cook, iron etc. They also learnt a lot when their parents were Cub Scout Leaders.
     
     In the end, I think it depends on who you marry, how assertive you are, how the man has been raised, and the example that has been set by his father.
     
     When I last spoke to my daughter-in-law, she said the women in her workplace who are in their 20s feel they have to make a choice between their careers and having children.
     
     Both Liberals and Labor want all women to work at least 15 hours per week once their youngest child has reached the age of 6. The government also encourages women to return to work when their baby is only 6 months old.

303. Lorikeet - 17, November, 2011 (19:29)

     A lot of today's men don't want to marry their women or have any children. They expect their wives to work for the whole of their lives, even if it isn't financially necessary.
     
     Since the days of Bob Hawke, the economy has increasingly been geared to a 2 income family, and the real value of wages and availability of full-time work have fallen.
     
     I think some of today's women have it easier than I did. Despite both of us earning low incomes, there was no help with child care fees and no generic products to buy. We had to supply everything for child care ourselves (including food).
     
     I had to do a ton of washing on Saturday mornings and then rush out to the shops, which closed at 11.00 a.m. Back then, there were no extended shopping hours.

304. Lorikeet - 17, November, 2011 (19:28)

     I largely agree with Kay.
     
     Today's women mostly don't become mothers until they are at least 30 years old. A lot are very selfish and try to land all of the childraising responsibility on child care centres and schools. A lot have very high expectations of what life should hold and do not listen to their elders, especially if they have a university education.
     
     Because I had 2 children at age 20, my husband and I did it very tough. When the kids were almost 2 and 3, I had to get a full-time job at UQ, so we would not lose the very modest roof over our heads. For this, I was heavily criticised by my mother-in-law at every opportunity.
     
     Because the women in my husband's family were related to a Lord in the British parliament, they were reasonably well educated and expected to be treated with equality, which meant they taught the boys to do housework.

305. Robyn - 17, November, 2011 (16:53)

     Good start Russel.
     
     Gee Kay, I think you've covered just about everything there is to say on this topic. I can't think of much more to add.
     I think men tend to do more housework and cooking these days.
     
     Badger,
     Thanks for your clarification on those points on our last topic.

306. Kay Kelly - 17, November, 2011 (16:02)

     (cont.)
     
     Society has changed over time - and so has society's expectations of people, including women. I can't imagine any of my daughters, daughters-in-law or granddaughters being satisfied with the rather boring way I used to live - not being able to afford holidays, staying home and looking after the kids until the kids were almost teenagers, not going out much, a very small plain little house with no mod cons, electronic devices etc. But of course, these higher expectations require higher incomes and two salaries and child care etc. So things are both better and worse for women!

307. Kay Kelly - 17, November, 2011 (15:50)

     Well, my daughters and granddaughters have it both easier and harder than I did. Physically easier because today's women have all the mod-cons - washing machines, dishwashers, microwaves, blenders, a much wider range of cooking ingredients, even their own cars. But probably more pressure on them to 'do it all' - have a job, raise kids, take them to all sorts of after-school activities, look like 'yummy mummies', hold mind-blowing kids' birthday parties, never smack naughty kids, help with homework etc. But their expectations of life are greater - big new house full of the latest furniture and a whole plethora of electrical and electronic equipment, 2 new cars, overseas holidays, private schools for the kids, a high powered executive job, designer clothes etc etc.

308. Russel - 17, November, 2011 (15:09)

     Can't wait to see who is first to blame this on Julia Gillard. Come on...