The cost of bad teeth

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The cost of bad teeth

08 Dec

The cost of bad teeth

08, Dec, 2011 (2:04 PM)
The Brotherhood of St Laurence says bad teeth are costing the Australian economy more than $1.3 billion in lost employment and adults on lower incomes are 60 times more likely to have no teeth.

News reports this week say that an as yet unreleased interim report by the National Advisory Council on Dental Health supports calls for a universal dental scheme with a significant investment in next year's budget and a view to increasing the commitment over time.

Is it time to bite the bullet and fund desperately-needed universal dental care in the same way as the Medicare system?

Or is it just one more nail in the coffin of a health system already struggling to cope?

Disclaimer: The views expressed in these blogs are not necessarily those of National Seniors Australia. This blog is moderated and any content deemed inappropriate by the administrator will be removed, including comments that are offensive or discriminatory; libellous or defamatory; breach copyright, unless we have the owner’s permission to use it; or contain personal or commercially confidential material. Personal attacks will be deleted by the moderator. The use of this blog to broadcast overtly party-political messages is also prohibited. The moderator’s decision is final and no correspondence will be entered into. Any personal details shared here are public and can be found on internet searches.

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Comments (276)

Bob B - 15, December, 2011 (14:27)

The nuclear battery seems to have potential. It also seems to support the adage of where there is a will there is a way.

I have no doubt that there is a lot of equivalent research going on, overseas of course, to develope safe sources of clean power.

It's a crying shame our government has not been more open eyed about our approach to clean power especially with the carbon tax. I am on the record as supporting a program like the carbon tax but one focused on reducing the contaminants we pour into our environment. Carbon dioxide is not a contaminant.
Kay Kelly - 15, December, 2011 (14:24)

Robyn

If you are really keen, you could look at this much longer article about small nuclear power reactors. It gives you a good idea of the diversity of approaches used in different countries:

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf33.html

You made it clear that you favour things like solar and wind etc. But once again, an awful lot of work still needs to be undertaken to develop acceptable storage solutions to provide sufficient base load power for times when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow.

As for hydro-electric power - look at the appalling proposal in Brazil that would drown a goodly part of the Amazon basin, and displace hundreds of thousands of natives. And the 3 Gorges Dam in China - not very environmentally sound.
Kay Kelly - 15, December, 2011 (14:03)

Robyn

This short Wikipedia article discusses the issues faced by the small Alaskan town of Galena, and the proposal to provide power to it using a nuclear battery. As you can see from the discussion, this is still being developed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galena_Nuclear_Power_Plant
Kay Kelly - 15, December, 2011 (13:26)

Robyn (cont.)

I think these sorts of developments are among a whole suite of nuclear related research that is being undertaken around the world. In addition, work is being done to develop different types of full-scale nuclear power plants. For example, there are reactors that actually use nuclear waste as fuel. All of this research work is very expensive. The push towards a low carbon future helps propel this work.

Even with these nuclear batteries, a pilot plant would have to be built and tested over a range of conditions before they could be regulated and built around the world.
Kay Kelly - 15, December, 2011 (12:47)

Robyn

I am not an expert on this technology, but I believe that nuclear batteries are relatively new, and are designed to give safe power to small communities - as opposed to connecting small communities to the grid. I don't know to what extent they can be scaled up to power larger communities.

The link below is a Time Magazine discussion of nuclear batteries:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2050039,00.html
Robyn - 15, December, 2011 (11:54)

Very interesting article Kay, thanks. But it does beg the question: Why is everyone not using "Nuclear Batteries" if they are so great?
Kay Kelly - 15, December, 2011 (11:43)

Robyn

I may have it all wrong, but I did read some argument that indicated that without nuclear power, Australia's dependence on coal-fired power stations would continue into the foreseeable future. This would mean we would have to spend billions of dollars buying carbon credits to allow power production to continue.

The argument then is that we might as well spend that money to build nuclear power stations and not pollute the atmosphere. A truly 'low carbon' future.
Kay Kelly - 15, December, 2011 (11:25)

Robyn

I'm on a roll here! The link below is to a short article in today's Courier Mail written by Shane Budden, titled 'Energising the nuclear argument':

http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/energising-the-nuclear-argument/story-fn6ck620-1226222272590

You should find it an interesting article!
Helen - 15, December, 2011 (10:55)

Good morning all. this might be my only contrib tdy as I am so busy at the moment.
I just ignored (you know who) & sat on my hands so I couldn't type sometimes while I read things. Being too busy helped a lot too.

My ref didn't get taken off because it must have been acceptable. Besides I don't remember mentioning anyone's name. If a certain person took it to heart, I'm not responsible for that.

Bob That trip sounds great too. I love snow (better than heat). The Maories were more bloodthirty. I was just ref to looks, artwork & housing etc. the rest might have been learnt (eating people) because of starvation,who knows.

Hope I can come back today not sure though, whould like to chat longer over some issues over the last couple of days...
Sue Do-Nim - 15, December, 2011 (8:55)

It’s been a long week and my tongue is very sore, from biting it.
KAY @ 6:34, the person of interest, as opposed to interesting person, has twice called on the “ Word
Policewoman “but she too has ignored her anguished cries and has probably been able to complete
her Christmas shopping this past week…NO deletions!

There are people on this Blog with such a genuine wealth of life experience and deep understanding
of political, social and economic issues that it’s a pity someone who continually tries to hijack
this Blog by using nothing more than shallow ill-informed argument garnered from quick internet
searches receives so much of the limelight.
The woman in question should have a good hard look in the mirror and try to employ some sort of
self adjustment of her attitude…We can’t do it all for you.
To steal a phrase that Paul Keating used towards Peter Costello...” You’re a low altitude flyer, aren’t
you”?
Robyn - 15, December, 2011 (8:52)

Kay,

Re your comment at 8:03.
That is typical Tony Abbott, the self-named, so-called, moral gatekeeper of our nation! He would do well to watch Hilary Clinton's speech on human rights for LGBT people.

I once read a letter to my local newspaper written by the mother of a 15 year old gay boy who was attending a local Catholic Highschool. He was so badly admonished for his sexuality by the brothers who deemed him "sinful" that he committed suicide.

Cardinal Pell, Tony Abbott's best mate is well known for his homophobic attitudes. Fortunately within the upper eshalons of the Catholic Church there are some genuine Christians, like the Bishop who overturned the ruling applied by the school.
Robyn - 15, December, 2011 (8:52)

Kay,

Re your comment at 8:03.
That is typical Tony Abbott, the self-named, so-called, moral gatekeeper of our nation! He would do well to watch Hilary Clinton's speech on human rights for LGBT people.

I once read a letter to my local newspaper written by the mother of a 15 year old gay boy who was attending a local Catholic Highschool. He was so badly admonished for his sexuality by the brothers who deemed him "sinful" that he committed suicide.

Cardinal Pell, Tony Abbott's best mate is well known for his homophobic attitudes. Fortunately within the upper eshalons of the Catholic Church there are some genuine Christians, like the Bishop who overturned the ruling applied by the school.
Robyn - 15, December, 2011 (8:33)

Kay,

Thanks for the link. Certainly the US, Russia and China remain committed to nuclear energy. I find it hard to open my mind to the possibility of Australia adopting nuclear power in the future. The inherent dangers of this technology pose too many risks worldwide. Hopefully within 100 years or so the current "new" clean green technologies will be so sophisticated that all nuclear power stations will be decommissioned and dismantled.
Bob B - 15, December, 2011 (8:13)

Kay

Its an interesting exercise: of note is the way she has left me alone and over the past couple of topics has been quite polite and responsive to discussion. I think some of the phrasology like Green Pagans and neo-communiists is off putting and telling in itself. I fear, no, expect I have just gone up a notch or two on the 'ladder'.

We have all been tested quite openly and most refrained. Did this reduce her 'blogging', no but it did reduce the offensive commenting and thats good in itself.
Kay Kelly - 15, December, 2011 (8:03)

Robyn

Interesting article in the Courier Mail this morning. Apparently a Catholic primary school in Broken Hill refused to accept (into kindergarten) the daughter of a same-sex couple! Appalling!

Fortunately the acting Bishop saw the light of day and ordered that this little girl be admitted. Of course, this school would receive a fair bit of public funding.

Tony Abbott just lost me, though. He refused to condemn the original decision by the school, saying it up to individual schools to make such decisions. As I've said before, his avowed Catholicism which he can't seem to divorce from his public decision-making, is one of my biggest worries about him.
Lorikeet - 15, December, 2011 (6:47)

Kay:

Behaving in a childish manner on a blog, and putting snide comments where the person you are talking about can see them are a testament to the kind of person you are.

Last week one of your "friends" correctly identified you as being Abuser of the Week.

I read what everyone has to say, whether I agree with them or not, and most mature people do the same.

I have also noticed that the Moderator has still not removed the name calling by Helen at the beginning of the comment thread.
Kay Kelly - 15, December, 2011 (6:34)

Fellow bloggers

Well we have made it through to 'mad Thursday' again! I think our little 'experiment' went reasonably well this week. I will try to continue in the same vein from now on. Although I do concede it is often very difficult to not respond to some extremely provocative comments.

Our friend was pretty tame this week. There were the usual ill-informed raves, but I concede that efforts to clarify issues for her are a waste of time. Despite there being a wealth of expert knowledge and wide experience from within blogger community, our friend does not appear to be able to consider and learn. And this despite her constant claims to be a "quick learner" and "very clever". It seems her views are set in stone.

Our friend did call for a couple of blogs to be removed and attacked one blogger (quite unprovoked) in her usual way (19:51 10/12). But all in all, not too bad.
Kay Kelly - 15, December, 2011 (6:12)

Bob B.

Thanks for the info re the Antarctic trip you did. Antarctica and Canada/Alaska are both on my 'bucket list'.

I too have been on a Peregrine trip (Andes Horseback Expedition in 2009) and have found them a very reliable and professional organisation. My friend did one of their Africa trips and was also very satisfied.

Hopefully before too long I will make it to both locations. I have done a great trip (organised personally) starting from Punta Arenas and traveling by car across southern Patagonia to Torres del Paine National Park (absolutely magnificent) and subsequently across the border into Argentina to Perito Moreno Glacier. I definitely recommend Torres del Paine NP for spectacular scenery and abundant wildlife.
Lorikeet - 14, December, 2011 (19:38)

I think some people have short memories regarding the recent nuclear holocaust in Japan, where the loss of life and human suffering is expected to continue for decades.

As far as I'm concerned, the true cost of nuclear energy is immeasurable in terms of potential for human suffering, and the possibility of large chunks being blown off the planet.

There are clean coal technologies that can be implemented, along with new hydroelectric schemes.

If people want religion taught only in churches, it would be unfair to expect that parents should have to put up with Pagan Religion being taught in our schools.
Kay Kelly - 14, December, 2011 (18:05)

Robyn

While some nuclear power plants are being decommissioned, others are being built. The link below lists all the nuclear reactors currently known to be under construction:

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf17.html

Others are planned. We just don't seem to get to know much about all this activity here in Australia.
Bob B - 14, December, 2011 (17:01)

Helen

Have been to Canada/Alaska and it is a marvellous trip. I don't see the Canada/NZ link like you do. I see the Maroi to be more hostile than Canada's first people. I don't believe the NZ maroi lives in the large earth rooved winter dwellings like in Canada and the teepee I also don't see in NZ. Have been to NZ but not well travelled as a tourist - business on both islands for a week.

If you like ice and snow as well as glaciers and tall dominating mountains etc the Antarctic Peninsular is the go. Did it last year with Peregrine Tours. You get to actually walk on Antarctica. The ship was the Akademik Sergey Vavilov.
Kay Kelly - 14, December, 2011 (16:13)

Robyn

Just a couple of links to do with the program I was taking about.

The first is about Barry Brook.

http://www.adelaide.edu.au/directory/barry.brook

The second is just an article you might find interesting.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/barry-brook-follow-britains-lead-on-nuclear-power/story-e6freo8c-1225796177006
Kay Kelly - 14, December, 2011 (16:04)

Robyn

Yes, most of the nuclear plants were built around the same time and have probably had their productive lives extended as much as possible. Just like Fukushima, until the tsunami terminally damaged it.

It will be interesting to see over time what decisions are made to replace the base-load power formerly provided by nuclear power plants. Will Europe commit to modern reactors? Can Europe afford them? Will other power sources (solar, wind etc) provide sufficient base-load power to satisfy Europe's needs? I don't know the answer to these questions - only time will tell.

But to completely exclude nuclear power from consideration in the future mix of power sources is indeed foolish. And that was the point being made in the program.
Kay Kelly - 14, December, 2011 (15:52)

Romaine

Yes, I think we need to be considering a whole suite of options as power sources. Because coal was so cheap and plentiful, nuclear power has not really been developed as much as it could have been. I guess it will be a real test of those who believe in a low carbon future as to how much they are prepared to pay to replace coal-fired power stations, and even replace the old-generation nuclear plants which were all built around the same time and are now nearing the end of their productive lives.
Kay Kelly - 14, December, 2011 (15:40)

I am glad to hear that religion is being removed from school syllabuses. By that I assume Christianity is the main religion being removed, as it is the predominant religion in this country. Religion should be taught by churches, or even church-funded schools, to those who want to be taught religion. Religion has no role in state-funded education. The only possible subject that would be OK is Comparative Religion that informed students about the basic history and tenets of all religions.

I would hope that climate change is really only being taught as a part of the Earth's climate changes over the millions of years, plus a recent 'theory' that changes to the earth by man MIGHT have some influence.
Robyn - 14, December, 2011 (15:34)

Kay,

Regarding that program you watched in which "a European visiting scientist was asking why on earth Australia has an absolute phobia about nuclear power when so much of the world is powered this way".

Many European countries have either phased out or are in the process of phasing out their nuclear power plants. There is much information on this if you google 'countries phasing out nuclear power'.

Also interesting to google 'decommissioning of nuclear power plants'. Plants need to be decommissioned and dismantled at the end of their productive life, (approx 30 years for most plants), and the cost is massive!
Romaine - 14, December, 2011 (15:28)

Kay (13.45).
I also watched that programme. There have been several letters and articles in the Canberra Times on molten salt reactors over recent months and India, Norway and China are already running experimental plants. Aust. has a third of the world's thorium and we should at least be looking into it.
Lorikeet - 14, December, 2011 (14:36)

For those who think the Pagan Climate Change Religion is NOT already being taught in our schools, remember John Howard was on TV last night complaining about it and demanding it be removed from the syllabus.

There are already moves afoot to remove other forms of religious education from our schools.

About 5 years ago, my then 15 year old son backed another boy in a debate with a science teacher over what was being taught. The kids won the debate, hands down.
Lorikeet - 14, December, 2011 (14:32)

Water from the northern tropics can easily be moved to regional areas, which could then support larger populations.

Those who have fallen for the story about there being finite amounts of oil and coal have been duped. There are copious quantities of natural gas floating on top of rich coal seams under all of the world's oceans. Ditto for oil.

Everything is renewable over time, and the amount of carbon in various forms cannot become greater or lesser.

Earthquakes, tsunamis and volcanic eruptions are the result of sunspot activity and have nothing whatsoever to do with human activity.
Kay Kelly - 14, December, 2011 (13:52)

Helen

Are you advocating this northern Australia 'food bowl' idea? Yes, they have water for a few months of the year. The rest of the time it is terribly dry. And the Ord River scheme wasn't nearly as successful/productive as people predicted.
Kay Kelly - 14, December, 2011 (13:45)

I was watching an interesting program the other day on the ABC - on Big Ideas. Professor Barry Brook, a climate scientist and environmentalist from Adelaide Uni was discussing, and advocating, nuclear power as a way to a carbon free future. He was making the point that nuclear power is a necessary component in the world's power sources. A European visiting scientist (a co-presenter) was asking why on earth Australia has an absolute phobia for nuclear power when so much of the world is powered this way - especially as we have copious amounts of uranium - and even thorium.

As I said - a very interesting program.
Helen - 14, December, 2011 (13:43)

(3)We did a lovely cruise on the ms "Orsterdaam" thru Alaska - breath taking! I could live there easily.

On Vancouver Island there are gardens called the "Beauchant Gardens" a must as well. The most beautiful gardens I have ever seen.

You might have come past where I live in the H/bury. It is lovely here too. We were so lucky to find such a beautiful spot to spend our retirement & only 4ks from our no 2 son, it's perfect...
Helen - 14, December, 2011 (13:41)

(2)Climate change is natural. Why speed it up & let those who spew pollution into our air get away with it (& take their profits O/S in most cases)!

I say give it a go. Most other C/tries have kept up with the times. Successive govs here have let all our infrastructure run down to the ground. Hell we still live all around the outside of Aus because we still have not watered Aust after over 200 yrs! I think it's time (& I'm all for change).
WEG You will just love Canada/Alaska. when you go there check out the museums. Their art work & the way they made their houses it's exactly like NZ. the totems. They even look the same! contd
Helen - 14, December, 2011 (13:40)

WEG-KAY It's all about doing things a different way. New Tech, new jobs. This will benefit everyone. Like all things it takes time.
We have to replace so much that is old & obsolete. It seems to me the best option is to start "with new" & not keep patching the old.

We also need to clean up our act on a world scale. Put back what has been taken away over a very long time.
Kay Kelly - 14, December, 2011 (12:26)

(cont.)

We have copious amounts of uranium, and modern fast breeder reactors, especially using thorium, would not produce the radioactive waste that current reactors produce. Mind you, radioactive waste can be dealt with successfully at the moment - it is purely a matter of economics. Certainly nuclear power must be in the mix of alternative power sources.
Kay Kelly - 14, December, 2011 (12:25)

I actually agree with Lorikeet in that the proposed Carbon Tax is more of a wealth redistribution tax. It takes money from the 'rich' ('polluting') companies and redistributes it to lower income earners.

There will be no effect on climate as a result of this tax.

However, coal and oil are finite, therefore we do need to be investing in other forms of energy. France saw the writing on the wall back in the OPEC oil crisis of the 1970s and invested heavily in nuclear power. Now I believe around 70% of its power comes from nuclear, and of course, it is one of the lowest carbon dioxide emitting developed nations.
WEG - 14, December, 2011 (11:40)

Helen (9.35) - My family lived in NZ for 3 years. Wonderful place to visit.

I’m off to Canada / Alaska soon. You’re right, the countries have similar terrain.
The Maori are Polynesian and island hoppers so their origins as I understand have lineage to Hawaii etc.

Also had a houseboat holiday on the Hawkesbury recently. Not too bad scenery either.

Robyn’s internet reference of countries with carbon tax did not mention NZ.
Interesting to note, even NZ have now reduced their rollout of carbon tax, because of the deleterious impact on their agriculture / farming sector.
Common-sense I think! The Aust. Government is spinning out of control over this carbon tax debacle.

No wonder I keep grinding my teeth.
Kay Kelly - 14, December, 2011 (11:17)

(cont.)

But as for the current climate change 'religion' - no! The evidence simply isn't there yet! To teach that is akin to indoctrination in religion! There are still many reputable scientists that don't support this new religion. But it is certainly true that it is in a scientist's best interests to propose research into climate change because that's where the research funds are at the moment! As time goes on, with so many people working on climate change, hopefully more agreed facts will emerge. Climate is a very complex issue.
Kay Kelly - 14, December, 2011 (11:16)

Helen (cont.)

As for climate change being taught in schools - I think that is a long way down the track.

Yes, by all means acknowledge that on a scale of the Earth's age, climate has continually changed, often quite rapidily and significantly. There is a huge body of evidence to support that. And there is no reason for anyone to believe that the climate should now remain unchanged when it never remained unchanged before!
WEG - 14, December, 2011 (11:08)

Thanks Robyn (9.08) for the link on carbon tax. Just proves my point though.
Take 2 of your examples:-

India has a carbon Tax on just coal. It raises approx. $535 Million per year.

Norway introduced a tax on carbon in 1991. Its done zero for carbon emissions as they’ve increased substantially, as will ours.

In comparison Australian’s are already paying for State ‘direct action’ carbon taxes for many years now, and has collected $billions already.

Electricity bills have increased some 60% over the last few years, under the banner of the so called green tax, and all for zilch.
Governments, mainly State Labor Governments then, have squandered all the money raised for no benefit in reducing the impact of climate change.

What a fraud.
Kay Kelly - 14, December, 2011 (11:04)

Helen

I agree that a subject called 'Comparative Religions' should be taught in schools. Religion is a very interesting topic - both historically and psychologically. I find it interesting that so many people seem to want/need to believe in some deity. This course could also touch on all the old belief systems as well. It would be interesting to see how many people remain fanatics when they realise that their religion is just one of many belief systems developed by mankind for a whole host of (often political) reasons.
Lorikeet - 14, December, 2011 (10:55)

Wealth is being redistributed across the world to bring every nation down to the lowest common denominator.

The figures given by WEG certainly add up to somewhere approaching the $17 billion demanded by Oxfam each year to meet Millennium Development Goals by 2015.

The Carbon Tax would be better named "Wealth Redistribution Tax", since it is only about a financial climate change.

The very people who want to teach the Pagan Climate Change Religion in our schools want to do away with the teaching of other faiths and tax them out of existence, while at the same time empowering increasingly aberrant lifestyles.

An informed opinion on Climate Change will never be reached by students when only the extreme left wing's argument is taught.

Badger:

I think taxing the hell out of luxury cars would be more appropriate. The money can be used to compensate road accident victims and improve orthopaedic services in our public hospitals.
Helen - 14, December, 2011 (9:43)

Yes - climate change should be taught in schools. Only when this happens can one make an informed decision.

That's the problem now. Many are "blinkered" & close their eyes & ears to anything they don't want to hear. It's like religion as well. You can't knock something that you know nothing about. Learning about all religions is good, then we can make our own choices later on. It's also interesting.

It's also what makes a blog such as this so worthwhile. I love all the diff opinions (most of the time)...
Helen - 14, December, 2011 (9:35)

As for Canada. I'm not sure re their reasons but I have been there. They are a perfect example of the way things SHOULD be. One of the most beautiful places on God's earth. Everything is pristine clean. They have retained their rain forests & the water is v clean. I was there a couple of yrs ago & also went to Alaska. My view is that they have always been v conscious of enviromental issues all along, perhaps they don't have the problems there that we have here.

Our hotter areas are the worst affected in Aus. In C the temp is more like NZ. In fact NZ is like a mini Canada. The Indians looks so similar in every way. I wondered if they travelled from C many yrs ago & settled in NZ because it was so much like home.

Did others who travelled there notice this?..
Badger - 14, December, 2011 (9:29)

I do like the logic of spending tobacco tax revenue on health: smokers pay lots in tax; smokers are much more likely to have expensive health problems; therefore we should spend that tax revenue on health.
Perhaps we should adopt the same logic in the rest of our tax system: high-income earners pay most tax; they are more likely to buy luxury cars; therefore we should apportion this tax revenue into subsidizing luxury cars. Or is that a sanctimonious non-smoker attitude? I believe the tax system should be used to provide a more egalitarian society, irrespective of how the taxes were raised in the first place.
Helen - 14, December, 2011 (9:27)

Yep! If the Libs get in there will be a tax on everyone to pay to the polluters to clean up their act.

I would have pref an ETS to start with but the hung parliament changed this. At least the 3 yrs before the ETS there will be help from 50% of the tax to the people (starting in May 12) & for business to change. Many have or are changing & getting ready for the Impensing CT.

I still feel a "self funding" scheme is the best way to go (paid by the polluters) & not the other way round. Now it is going to happen, & the hard yards done getting it all thru, business will not agree to dimantling it all if the Libs ever get in. Those who believe Abbott's promises (in blood) to rescind all these changes are v misguided in my opinion...
Lorikeet - 14, December, 2011 (9:18)

The first link I posted related to the USA's use of taxes on alcohol and tobacco, but the following suggests that both USA and Australia use the taxes to repair the damage done to people's health.

http://taxreview.treasury.gov.au/content/ConsultationPaper.aspx?doc=html/publications/Papers/Consultation_Paper/section_11.htm
Lorikeet - 14, December, 2011 (9:10)

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/drugstrategy/publishing.nsf/Content/34F55AF632F67B70CA2573F60005D42B/$File/mono64.pdf
Robyn - 14, December, 2011 (9:08)

Here is a list of other countries that have a carbon tax.

Finland (since 1990); The Netherlands; Sweden (since 1991); India (since 2010); Norway (since1991); Denmark (since 1992); Switzerland (since 2009); Ireland (since 2010); Costa Rica (since 1997);
The Canadian province of Quebec and Us city of Boulder have also implemented carbon taxes.

Source:
www.sbs.com.au/news/article/..../fact box-carbon-taxes-around-the-world

Many other countries have an ETS and more are in the process of establishing a CT or ETS.
Lorikeet - 14, December, 2011 (9:08)

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5824775_tax-revenue-cigarette-sales-go_.html
Lorikeet - 14, December, 2011 (9:03)

WEG:

Yes, that's right, and now we have John Howard on TV complaining about our kids being indoctrinated with the Climate Change Religion in our schools.

Unfortunately a vote for Liberals is still a vote for a Carbon Trading Scheme, unless they are going to do a back flip on their last pre-election plan. Since they support corporatisation, it is highly unlikely they will not support a Carbon Trading Scheme.

The last thing we need is a return of merchant banker, Malcolm Turnbull, to the top job.
Lorikeet - 14, December, 2011 (9:03)

Those who departed this mortal coil some time ago said that in the old days, smoking in moderation (cigarettes or pipe) did no one any harm.

Maybe we should push for the return of the roll-your-own cigarette, with unbleached paper and NO dangerous chemical additives. This would assist those who are very addicted to nicotine, both financially and health wise.

On TV, they said Woolworths makes more money from selling tobacco products than anything else.

I will try to find some answers to Robyn's question.
Lorikeet - 14, December, 2011 (8:54)

Yes, smoking inside the house is a definite no-no.

My mother and maternal grandmother both had Subcortical Vascular Dementia. This means that the blood flow to the brain is diminished. Grandpa didn't smoke or drink, but my father smoked over Mum for about 49 years, before dying of emphysema.

To my knowledge, Alzheimer's and various other forms of dementia are largely hereditary. I don't think the exact role of aluminium and possibly fluoride is very well understood.

An expert on TV last night said that mental decline is largely influenced by social isolation and under-use of the brain. He said some people can have Alzheimer's and no one even knows about it, because they have kept their minds functioning with puzzles, discussion groups etc.
WEG - 14, December, 2011 (8:50)

PM of Canada’s has now pulled out of Kyoto – it will save them $14B a year.

He’s also said categorically they will never introduce a carbon tax – sounds familiar? Japan and other nations are predicted to follow Canada’s announcement.

More of our money ‘being extracted and going up in smoke’ (my attempt to link the subject matter again)

Australian has been sold down the drain. Our blank cheque to the UN, an additional $3B per year on top of the $10B Bob Brown fund. This is prior to the painful ‘extraction’ of a full blown impose / carbon tax on our cost of living.
Helen - 14, December, 2011 (7:35)

(2) I blame the Mfgs & Govs for pushing & making money from this huge indust for so long. Even sport was involved promoting tob on players backs. That's hypocritical to me.

I don't allow smoking in my house. They are relegated to the verandah where they can sit and view the river & puff away...
Helen - 14, December, 2011 (7:34)

Contd - It's not about being judgemental but about stopping our young people from starting if we can.

There is no underestimating the damage to personal health in all areas & also those who live with smokers. I don't really care what people do to themselves if it's what they want, as long as it doesn't affect others. As mentioned prev I used to get so sick as a child & found out later that it was my dad's cigs making me ill. My mother also died from vascular dementia. She was not overweight, didn't smoke or drink. though there is not proof here of course this was the cause it can't be ruled out either. cont
Helen - 14, December, 2011 (7:19)

Morning all! I guess we all have our views re smoking. Yrs ago it was practically pushed down people's throats to smoke. Shops even sold "menthol" as being "milder" & they were the one's that many woman puffed on.

Old photos show the men with them either behind their ears or hanging at a certain angle from their lip. Humphrey Bogart was the perfect examples on our screens. Also John Wayne. Both didn't die from old age either (which is another story)...
Robyn - 14, December, 2011 (6:03)

I think all taxes collected from the sale of tobacco and alcohol products should be directed solely to health funding. Perhaps they are. Does anyone know what happens to this large source of government revenue?
Sue Do-Nim - 13, December, 2011 (21:50)

Cigarette companies had it good for a long time, didn’t they?

As one generation died off, literally, the next one was there to take its place.

Their marketing and advertising must have cost a fortune but it was extremely successful.

I still remember some of their campaigns and jingles.

“ Light up a Viscount a Viscount…”

“Peter Stuyvesant..your international passport to smoking pleasure.

“ 34 cents and you’re a member…join the Escort Club”

“ Benson and Hedges..when only the best will do”.

And who could forget “Anyhow, have a Winfield”.

And the “Marlboro Man”

Someone once said that CAMEL was the only cigarette with the factory on the packet..I’d have to agree.

The fact that tobacco companies are now restricted in how they are able to advertise must have effected sales more than any plain packaging legislation could ever hope to achieve.
Kay Kelly - 13, December, 2011 (20:48)

Robyn

I fully support your comments about the sanctimonious attitudes some people have towards smokers. I am not a smoker nor ex-smoker, but I am aware that people's lifestyle choices often have complex triggers - it is not simply a case of 'choosing' to have some addictive habit. I prefer the 'there but for the sake of god go I' attitude.

We all live the best way we can, and make the best choices we can at any particular time in our lives. To have some holier-than-thou person, who probably has his/her own skeletons in the cupboard, making harsh judgments is certainly not helpful in any way.
rmcn - 13, December, 2011 (20:47)

Lorikeet! I had bone density test this year, my doctor sent me to Greenslopes Hospital in Brisbane. No cost whatsoever. I do have a Pension Card. I dont think I have paid a thing for medical since I retired.
rmcn - 13, December, 2011 (20:42)

Thank you Robyn, how very true! I started to smoke over 50 years ago when I began work. It was virtually compulsory, everyone did it! I gave up 5 years ago. I had to as I have ruined my lungs, just 40% capacity now. Completely my fault, I did it. But yes over 50 years of smoking I paid a damn sight more taxes than non smokers. But it does irk me to see young kids smoking now. Its so damn expensive, and they know of the dangers whereas we didnt. But of course they are invincible, just like when they get into a car drunk and 7 end up dead. Its the old "Its not going to happen to me" and its not going to change unfortunately
Lorikeet - 13, December, 2011 (20:27)

More smokers are employed in low paid occupations. When the price of cigarettes goes up, I'm not sure how they manage to feed their children.

I get bulk billed for most tests, but when I went along for Bone Density testing last year, I had to pay about $70. Other people paid $90.

In my experience, the food is better in public hospitals. Rich doctors own shares in hospitals so they can rip people off even more than they used to.

It's true that public hospitals have lost a lot of very good medical specialists due to dreadful remuneration.

We should all be very concerned about the move for Nurse Practitioners to replace doctors in clinics, and the encouragement of home births, especially when the ambulance service is overstretched.

I believe this is a Greens peasant village style initiative.
Robyn - 13, December, 2011 (20:27)

Correction: Change 'dope addicts' to 'dope smokers'. They are not necessarily addicts.
Robyn - 13, December, 2011 (20:15)

Some of the worst anti- smoking judges I have met have been dope addicts. They seem to think it's ok to smoke dope in front of anyone and children while despising smokers. How hypocritical!

Smokers pay so much more tax than anybody else. Of course they are entitled to equal health care - they have paid hugely for it! I do agree that preventative measures are a good idea but I don't think many of them work.
Robyn - 13, December, 2011 (20:09)

I am an ex smoker and I do feel for smokers. In my experience they are very considerate about other people and usually isolate themselves to have their puff, as I did when I smoked. I really dislike judgemental attitudes being aimed toward smokers or any addicts. There are process addicts and substance addicts. Unfortunately for smokers they are both. They are addicted both to nicotine and psychological triggers. They are treated as stinking lesser people by those who get off on their own sense of purity and superiority as non smokers. Personally I have no time for these self-righteous attitudes and I find them hard-hearted and lacking in true understanding of the immense addiction that some (many?) have to tobacco.
Helen - 13, December, 2011 (14:36)

(2)I had to have major sugery to my back eighteen mths ago & my Prof bulk billed in a private hosp. I'm sure he did it because I was my husbands carer. I couldn't believe it. I paid nothing at all for my stay either with priv Health Cover. I had a "critical stenosis", where the blood supply & nerves were cut off, caused by this auto immune arthritis I have (now you know my secret). I'm actually pretty fit & it came quickly & was shock. I would have hated to have had to wait as it was a life threatening situation for me at the time.

All better now. I see my Spec on tele often (I won't mention his name here though)...
Helen - 13, December, 2011 (14:35)

Kay - It depends on your GP most of the time. When he refers you, if he ticks the box or asks for you to be bulk billed, most places do.

Our GP does this for us. I know he would only do it for pensioners or disadvantaged people. Some Drs don't do it at all & some places refuse to bulk bill. We just don't go to them. Contd -
Helen - 13, December, 2011 (14:23)

(3)The mistakes we are seeing today in Pub Hosp's are because everyone is run off their feet & staff are in many cases still in training & in short supply.

Priv hospitals are cleaner & better equiped because the doctors buy it all themselves as a group.

Seeing the Spec in his clinic has never been a prob but ops are if you have no cover. Even one day in a priv hosp costs a fortune with no Health Cover.

We have kept our cover. It is direct deb (& expensive for us) but we can't afford not to have it.

The only time public patients are really looked after well is if they have cancer or have a prognosis of death without treatment & there are only a few hosp in Aust who cater for this. There are a couple in Sydney, it depends on the problem...
Helen - 13, December, 2011 (14:21)

(2)Many sugeons opted to leave the public system altogether & now there are few who operate in the public hospitals & if they do it can take yrs to get a new body part. In the priv sector one can get it next week in most cases or as soon as the spec has a spare spot.
In the public sector one has to be half dead & if they are not, they are sent home to wait in the queue.

Taking a little of the subsidy from those on good incomes & creating a scheme for the disadvantaged to take out Health cover would be a great way to go in my opinion. Contd -
Helen - 13, December, 2011 (14:19)

Pub Health is fine for some things (BUT NOT HOSP), particularly if you have a "popular problem". Need new hips, knees, anything to do with the heart & many more. There are long lists that can take yrs. Also many excellent surgeons have bought hosp together & operate priv.

There are many who don't agree with this practise but what happened was that those who worked free yrs ago one day a week were expected to do more for nothing after Medicare & the rebate to them also cut back from the orig 10% leaving them out of pocket in the public sector. Contd
Kay Kelly - 13, December, 2011 (13:50)

I don't know if there was any policy change or not, but in recent years all the XRays, CAT scans, ultrasounds and pathology tests I've had have been absolutely free. Completely covered by Medicare. And that's at places like QML, QDI, Sullivan Nicolaides etc. I seem to recall some years ago I had to pay.

Has there been some government policy change? Does anyone know the facts?
Lorikeet - 13, December, 2011 (13:36)

We used a form of aversion therapy on our 2 older children when they were 9 and 10. We gave them a cigarette. They coughed and handed it back (same as their mum did at 13). They are now 37 and 36.

Now the older son has Early Onset Emphysema from smoking, has consumed a lot of alcohol and done drugs.

The second son has never smoked, only ever has 1 or 2 drinks at social events, and has never done drugs.

My 19-year-old has never smoked (yet), but consumes large quantities of alcohol (and sometimes uses marijhuana via a bucket bong) at parties.

These days the peer group has the power, and young people don't listen to adults, no matter who they are. The vast bulk of the kids have been over-empowered both at school and in the home.
Lorikeet - 13, December, 2011 (13:28)

The average wage is now $58,000, with the majority earning less. Even with both parents working, that's only $116,000.

I see no reason for the government to give a Health Insurance Rebate to the comparatively wealthy, while public hospitals cannot meet the demands of the poor.
Lorikeet - 13, December, 2011 (13:27)

Robyn:

Free treatment has always been available in public sector hospitals and health facilities in Queensland.

Breast Screening Clinics stand out as very good, compared with nearly third world standards in hospitals, a situation created largely by Labor.

The Medibank Rebate on medical services dried up in the private sector in 1979.

The 30% Health Insurance Rebate took some pressure off public hospitals, but when measured against the growing ranks of the poor, and the fact there is no cap, any worthwhile impact has been diminished.

At one time Kevin Rudd wanted to cap it at $100,000 household income. A figure of $150,000 would be accepted by DLP and Greens.

I thought $125,000 would be a better threshold, but a very wise man I met on a train said: "Any cap is better than none."
Helen - 13, December, 2011 (13:15)

I would never advocate to treat smokers in a lesser way to anyone else in regard to treatment.

I also believe that we should teach the young about all the nasties they might encounter whilst growing up. No better place than "work exp" in institutions for perhaps a week at yr 10 level, which is when bad behaviour sometimes starts & peer press the greatest.

Seeing is believing if you know what I mean..

In reg to smoking & teeth. I'm sure reformed smokers who did lose their teeth or who devloped other related illnesses, regret every puff made prev...
Helen - 13, December, 2011 (13:03)

As ment. I caught the "end" of the conv where the PM was hoping the Libs would support the gov with "this initiative". I thought it was a subsidy geared toward "helping" disadvantaged people to afford health cover. Perhaps I did hear wrong but that's what it sounded like to me. That's why I was asking. Sometimes hearing a little can give the wrong message. If what I heard was right, how wonderful would that be!...
Kay Kelly - 13, December, 2011 (12:34)

Helen

What's this about a subsidy? I thought the government was moving the other way! Wanting to cut rebates on private insurance. I seem to recall Howard was more or less forced to bring in the rebate measure to encourage people to take up private insurance when the public hospital system was heading for a collapse.

I know that for elective surgery it is well nigh impossible to get into a public hospital. But certainly hospital care in the private sector can still cost a fair bit! But for us oldies, it would be pretty scary to live without it!!
Kay Kelly - 13, December, 2011 (12:26)

(cont.)

As for barring smokers from the receiving the same medical benefits as non-smokers - I think that is a step too far!! We all do silly things that may cause/exacerbate our health conditions, so where do you draw the line?

And none of these issues are as simple as we would like. Blaming people doesn't really help. No, I think if people need medical benefits, all people should be treated equally.
Kay Kelly - 13, December, 2011 (12:25)

Helen

I certainly support the government's move to plain packaging for cigarettes. It is clearly difficult for people to quit such an addictive habit as smoking once they are hooked. The alarming thing is the huge number of young people taking up smoking, especially young women. Sometimes I believe they take up smoking to help keep their weight down. But I guess it is mainly peer pressure. I certainly think the bulk of the government's efforts should be geared toward discouraging people from starting to smoke in the first instance! And showing young people very graphic photos of the effects of smoking is a good start - the truth never hurt anyone - it just gives them more information on which to base their life decisions.
John O'Grady - 13, December, 2011 (11:29)

Perhaps advising young males that their ability to attain and maintain an erection can be compromised by vascular disease and posting 'before and after' dental photographs of both sexes. They really need to be frightened into realising that the risks go well beyond being 'cool'.
John O'Grady - 13, December, 2011 (11:26)

The rights of non smokers are recognised fairly well in our country where the practice is pretty well banned in public and work places. One has only to walk around an Asian city to see and smell the difference. Smokers are suffering the effects of an enormously strong addiction, way past the stage of 'just quitting'. Like most things it would be easier to do something about the issue by attacking the habit before it begins, perhaps advertising the lifelong nicotine and tar damage that inevitably follows - maybe advertising in a manner that will impress the young. Cont.
Helen - 13, December, 2011 (11:17)

I have no wish to be disrespectful to my blogging friends esp if because of what was usually "peer press" started smoking yrs ago. I was just stating my feelings. I also applaud any adv that will stop young people smoking.

Work exp in places where the effects of alcohol abuse, smoking & the affects of drugs (sometimes taken all together) would show them what they could be like if they start.

Protecting the young doesn't help them. children must learn when they are at the impressionable age. I often showed v graphic pictures to my children & it never did them any harm but DID teach them a deal of commonsense in their own lives.

What are your opinions on this. We tend to hide the truth in my opinion until it's too late. We even hide these patients in homes away from the g public in places situated in hospital grounds & n/homes...
Helen - 13, December, 2011 (11:04)

(2) What about everyone else's rights & the fact that we all have to pay for their treatment when health problems arrive & linger on. What are your feelings re this.

I've also seen children so ill with asthma & crupe (& their parents usually smelled like cigs). I remember feeling v angry at the time & not able to express my feelings because my job was to help. It is v hard to be in this position...
Helen - 13, December, 2011 (11:03)

I caught the tail end of an int. this morning where the Gov want to bring in a subsidy for Health Ins to help more people be able to afford priv health. Did I hear right? I'm pretty busy just now so can't listen quite like I usually do.

Also re the rights of smokers - should they have any? Willpower seems to go out the window incl regard for others. I still remember how sick I got as a child & didn't know it was my Dad's cigs causing it until I moved away. Contd -
Lorikeet - 13, December, 2011 (9:35)

Badger:

Yesterday at the NSA branch Xmas Dinner, a few of us were discussing Mandatory Pre-commitment for problem gamblers.

I remain uncertain as to the best course of action. Our party leader says that most of the revenue will be lost by the government, not the clubs.

Some gamblers are happy to pre-commit, while others consider it an attack on democracy, and Nanny State Control.

Maybe a middle road needs to be chosen. My dad gambled a hell of a lot of money, causing Mum very great difficulty in managing the household budget. When they were older, he gambled and smoked all of his own pension, and 2 of them had to live off Mum's. Even then, Mum was under a lot of pressure to give him some money.

What can be done about internet gambling?
What middle road can be found for clubs?
Lorikeet - 13, December, 2011 (9:24)

WEG:

Don't forget about Telstra. John Howard privatised it and now we are getting ripped off across the board by crooks and criminals.

The football seems to be mainly kicked in an undemocratic, un-Australian direction by both of the major parties and the Greens have an even worse agenda in that regard.

To give Malcolm Fraser his due, he had to drastically tighten our belts to make up for
Whitlam's excesses.
Badger - 13, December, 2011 (9:07)

I find myself agreeing with Lorikeet. Preventative measures, such as the recent tightening on tobacco advertising, can only benefit our long term health - including our oral health. The reduction in smoking amongst young people is, to my mind, a demonstration of successful government initiatives (both Liberal and Labor governments). When I hear fellow seniors bleating about their civil liberties being diminished by recent tobacco laws, it makes me laugh. The measures are working and, with respect, they are not aimed at hardened over 50s smokers.
Robyn - 13, December, 2011 (8:58)

WEG,

The history is well documented at:

www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_01_030700/scotton1/scotton1.html

Medibank as originally introduced by the Whitlam Government was phased into Medibank Phase II in 1976 and phased out completely in 1981. Only those with health care cards were entitled to free treatment from 1 September, 1981.

"Budgetry considerations, combined with pressure on the Fraser Government to produce policies more favorable to private providers and insurers, resulted in 1981 in a decision to abolish universal coverage and revert to a version of the pre Medibank arrangements."
WEG - 13, December, 2011 (7:52)

Robyn – I think you’re rewriting history.

Medibank was split into two (Standard & Private). The Medibank Private was a huge success as a result.

Medicare was introduced to cover off basic health / hospital cover to replace Medibank Standard. Then came the 30% rebate to encourage individuals to support their own health programs as cost continue to escalate into the realms of unaffordability.

As with Superannuation, Health has always been the political football. Both major parties legislate changes to swing the pendulum back into their idealistic intent.

I see nothing wrong with this!

PS: the LIBS would sell Medibank Private if they had the chance, just like the Labor sold both Commonwealth Bank and Qantas.
Lorikeet - 13, December, 2011 (7:10)

Where dental health is concerned, the government would be wise to take note of the old adage:

"One ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

This should give a clue as to where more money should be spent.

A tightening of societal discipline would also reduce government costs enormously, across a plethora of portfolios.
Lorikeet - 13, December, 2011 (7:07)

I was working for an Orthopaedic Specialist in private practice in 1978 and 1979.

In 1978 with Medibank in place, we were frantically busy, because it encouraged people to receive treatment in the private health sector. The doctor delivered a typewriter and various stationery items to my home, so I could do an extra 8 hours of work at the weekend. (Back then, if you did overtime, you actually got paid!)

In 1979, after Malcolm Fraser axed Medibank, the clientele dropped right off, and I was busy twiddling my thumbs for part of each day.

Over a very long period, Medicare Rebates and Schedule Fees have not kept pace with inflation, and the out-of-pocket costs are now so high that more people are being forced to seek treatment in the public sector.

I'm glad to see that the new Minister for Ageing also has Mental Health tacked onto the portfolio.
Robyn - 12, December, 2011 (21:13)

Kay,

Yes,the same occurred with Medibank, introduced by Whitlam, disbanded by Fraser and then reintroduced as Medicare by Hawke.

The "Denticare" vision sounds good to me. Hope it does eventuate.

I really like Tania Plibersek. I think she will perform well in the Health portfolio.
Lorikeet - 12, December, 2011 (20:31)

I have a brother-in-law who is a Purchasing Officer with Education Queensland. When we last spoke, he said he was going to write to Kevin Rudd and ask him for a level playing field for Australian manufacturers.

I said it was a lovely gesture, but Labor has no interest in empowering its own manufacturers, workers or farmers/graziers.

The corporates I talk about are NOT public servants. They are private companies, many of which are partly or largely owned by banks, and employ their own workers.
Lorikeet - 12, December, 2011 (20:25)

I have read the link. While there are excellent recommendations for a national dental health program, there is nothing to say that the government will implement any.

The federal Labor government has Buckley's chance of being re-elected, and here in Queensland, Labor's chances are even less.

Anna Bligh now wants to split Health into 2 pieces, on top of the debacle associated with the theft of $16 million.

My guess is that Julia Gillard had to move Nicola Roxon out of the Health and Ageing portfolio, because she has been receiving a helluva drubbing from underpaid aged care workers.

Various "commissions" can come up with anything they choose. The government doesn't have to follow their recommendations.

I live in a strongly held Labor seat. A recent automated poll revealed that if an election was held tomorrow, it would result in a landslide victory to the LNP.
Kay Kelly - 12, December, 2011 (19:35)

Well researched, Robyn. Your comments fit with what I heard one commentator say about this government's push to do way with the current EPC program. The commentator said that every government disbands what the previous government had (regardless), and replaces it with its own scheme - sometimes a similar scheme but with a different name.

Today Tanya Plibersek was asked about a dental scheme similar to Medicare. She just said she had to get her head around her new Health portfolio before commenting. Perhaps they will proceed with 'Denticare'? I think it would be a vote-winning scheme to include in the platform speech for next election!
Robyn - 12, December, 2011 (19:22)

Continued

Meanwhile, the National Health and Hospital Reform Commission (NHHRC) has recommended the establishment of 'Denticare'. While still separate from Medicare, an increased levy would fund this universal dental scheme.

Source:

www.bsl.org.au/..../Bond_Public_dental_care_and_the_Teeth_First_trial_....
Robyn - 12, December, 2011 (19:15)

In the mid 1990's the Labor Government introduced the Commonwealth Dental Health Program which the Liberal Government (under John Howard) promptly dismantled. The Liberal Government then introduced the Enhanced Primary Care (EPC) dental program for those suffering chronic and complex illness. The Labor Government seeks to dismantle this scheme in order to roll out a new Commonwealth Dental Health Program but to date have been blocked by the Senate. (to continue)
Kay Kelly - 12, December, 2011 (18:21)

Thank you, Robyn and Sue Do-Nim. You are both very kind.

Of course, deforestation is one of my pet topics and something that angers and distresses me very much.
Kay Kelly - 12, December, 2011 (18:12)

I refer to the comment I made at 16:51:

In case there are bloggers out there who don't understand Qld government department structures, by 'corporate support' of course I mean the usual 'corporate services' units that provide support to front line staff.

'Corporate support' means financial management, human resource management including payroll, information technology, records management, purchasing and procurement, property management, and general administrative support to line managers and field staff, plus a few other issues like FOI etc. At one stage I was a Corporate Services Manager for the southern Qld operations of a Qld government department, so am very familiar with these services. Corporate support staff are public servants paid by our taxes.
Robyn - 12, December, 2011 (18:04)

Congrats from me too Kay. Going by the quality of your contributions to our blog, I must say I am not surprised.
Lorikeet - 12, December, 2011 (17:51)

Ditto to Free Trade Agreements which are a free-for-all for the less wealthy nations, while the western world loses jobs and increases its foreign debt with borrowings to pay the lengthening welfare queues and buying value-added goods after selling the raw materials our own factories could use.

Planet Earth has a finite amount of carbon above and below the ground, and in the atmosphere. It cannot become more or less. A lot of the carbon is contained in houses, trees, human beings and animals.

We have been sold a crock by those working for skulduggerous bankers.

rmcn:

An excellent point! Here in Queensland, the Labor government has been sending both hospitals and schools backwards over many years. This gives them an excuse to let corporates take over, and sends our children backwards on the world stage.

In some countries where the government has corporatised everything, they have had to buy everything back!
Sue Do-Nim - 12, December, 2011 (17:43)

Kay K:
It's very hard to get published in the C.M. so, well done.

They get thousands of letters each day.

I didn't disbelieve you...I just must have missed it.
Lorikeet - 12, December, 2011 (17:42)

I figured out some time ago that Health, Education and The Arts would be corporatised, along with just about everything else, just going by where "donations" from The Macquarie Bank go.

This isn't because anything is too large. The government is simply handing everything over to corporates so they can rob us all blind.

I think WEG has given a good snapshot of where the $17 billion per year demanded by Oxfam is coming from.

The government has long ago "taken" a decision from the United Nations that we are all to go down to the lowest common denominator. This is why we are lending out borrowed money which will never be repaid, and paying a carbon tax before anyone else.
Kay Kelly - 12, December, 2011 (17:34)

Sue Do-Nim

Yes, it was published on 2/12/11, on the right hand page of the Letters to the Editor double pages, just a short one under the heading "Durban meet is missing points". And yes, under my name. The other letter was on 1/12/11, in the 'In Brief' section and written by S.P. Dean, Greenslopes - it talked about "seven billion human mouths" etc.
Sue Do-Nim - 12, December, 2011 (16:53)

Kay K: @ 9:56

Are you saying that your "Letter to the Editor"(Courier Mail) was published,and if so was it published under Kay Kelly?

I keep a pretty close eye on those contributors and I can't recall seeing K.K. recently.
Kay Kelly - 12, December, 2011 (16:51)

WEG

From what I heard on the radio in the car this arvo, Premier Bligh is splitting Health into 2 parts - frontline medical services in one part, and corporate support in the other part.

It seems the Dept is just too big and unwieldy. Of course they never learn. When I was in the QLD public service, they kept on taking small efficient Depts with good morale and combining them to make big unhappy Depts. And all this change costs heaps of money for no real outcome!
Helen - 12, December, 2011 (16:45)

Survived the shopping Kay & back to peace & quiet (thank God)! We went v early so got a park & managed to do what we wanted to do. My girl is happy (even if she has to wait until Chrissy to get what we chose in the way of clothes).

I'm too tired to participate this evening so will catch up in the morning. Heard some good changes today to the front line. Hopefully the gov will promote all the good things achieved this yr (& there have been many).

Ole Dr No was ambling on. I truly can't see how anyone can support such a negative party & see thru their nothingness in regard to policy.
Libs of yesteryear must squirm & to think I once supported them. (def not at the moment!) - Cheers til tomorrow...
WEG - 12, December, 2011 (16:38)

I'm not up to date with what the QLD Premier said, but is that not something to do with the $14m fraud.
Probably another Govn. review.
rmcn - 12, December, 2011 (14:25)

Just reading the Sydney Morning Herald online. They've just posted an article saying that Anna Bligh is dismantling Queensland Health. This is news? I thought it was an ongoing thing.....
WEG - 12, December, 2011 (11:54)

........like a red rag to a bull.
Kay Kelly - 12, December, 2011 (10:58)

Hey, where is our old friend, ETS?

Surely the mention of the Carbon Tax should get him interested?
Bob B - 12, December, 2011 (10:33)

Kay

To me the forests are a large part of the Earth's lungs and are extremely important. They must be considered in that light.

As I said earlier, we can double the current CO2 concentration with no ill effects on us whilst enabling the production of enough food to feed 10 bn people with no real additional effort. How much effort does it take for this to be realised by the powers to be around the world? That is if they really care!!!
Kay Kelly - 12, December, 2011 (9:56)

WEG

A valiant attempt at linking to the topic!

A couple of recent Letters to the Editor in the Courier Mail - one from someone asking if population/birth control was on the Durban agenda - another follow-up letter (from me) asking whether deforestation was being discussed. Who knows! I do know that the Earth's rapid deforestation MUST be contributing towards the Earth's rapidly rising carbon dioxide levels.

Alas - I doubt any countries have the courage to commit to any measures to really help the environment. Reducing pollution is good, but no one has yet claimed that the Carbon Tax will have any effect on Climate Change. But it will produce money from industry, and by extension from us everyday Joes, that can be used to satisfy the latest whims of Bob Brown.
WEG - 12, December, 2011 (9:36)

Newspaper articles this morning - Greg Combet has suggested the 2020 Durban ‘outcome was a spectacular’ development. What codswallop. Another lie. More Government spin.

There’s just an expression of intent, no strategy and no rubber on the road. The debate will continue up until 2020. Also, Kyoto agreement is dead next year, and there is nothing to replace it.

They have agreed to a $100B per year International Green fund to be set up. The Australian contribution / donation is up to $3B per year, on top of Bob Brown’s $10B direct action fund, and the $23 per tonne CO2 tax.

Australians are now shackled with the World’s largest CO2 tax penalty and is 10 ‘light’ years ahead of any international agreement.

It means more taxes for Australians for no reason or benefit. Another ‘kick in the teeth’ (my attempt at linking this to the current blog subject).
Bob B - 12, December, 2011 (9:15)

It wasn't that long ago when we all paid much more tax than we do now. Tax cuts ran almost wild in the latter days of the Howard government. Since, other adjustments have been made to protect lower paid people.

Hence, I have no difficulty at all in suggesting the Medicare levy be increased (doubled) to cater for dental. Just how that is done is worthy of more debate.
Helen Bischof - 12, December, 2011 (9:08)

I think that the exclusion of general dental care from the health rebate system is scandalous. Currently, it seems that a perception prevails that teeth are not part of the body.
So what if the Medicare levy would increase. Those who earn enough to pay tax will pay, & so they should. Anyway, the savings to the health system in medical costs attributed to bad teeth would be enormous.
Lorikeet - 12, December, 2011 (7:53)

My father died of emphysema from chain smoking throughout his life. My 37 year old son also has Early Onset Emphysema.

Unfortunately some people have very addictive personalities and it's hard for them to change their behaviour.

One of my father's brothers had his legs cut off due to smoking related circulatory disease. Another uncle died of lung cancer at age 50, despite giving up at age 26.

The eldest of my uncles drank and smoked all his life, but it did him no harm. I think tailor made cigarettes must be worse than roll-your-own.
Kay Kelly - 12, December, 2011 (7:03)

Helen

I guess you didn't sign up for our 'experiment' this week?

Hope you survive the Christmas shopping crush! At least the shopping centres are air-conditioned!

We have moved into our 'typical' summer weather pattern here - hot, humid all day leading to storms in the afternoon. I actually love storms - but then I have never been adversely effected by a really bad storm. Because we live at 420 metres with a panoramic view of Moreton Island through to Maleny, we can watch the spectacular lightning all around us. Really very beautiful.
Helen - 12, December, 2011 (6:06)

(3)- I'm taking my girl shopping today so we are leaving v early to hit the "big smoke" & get a park. Shops are a nightmare at the moment. I'm always SO glad to get back home again

Til later...
Helen - 12, December, 2011 (6:05)

(2) -The cig Co's have a lot to answer for & even various gov's for taking money from the industry.
Cig smokers don't think of the damage to those who live with them because they are so hooked on the prod. Sympathy should be given to those who live with them & develope disease because of it. We all know people like this.

Perhaps re-hab would be good whilst "drying out". After all it is a drug with withdrawl just like the others. Why is it glossed over & those affected told to get their act together? Some just can't & need real help.

Teeth are only one aspect distroyed. All parts of the body are affected. &

"One smoker affects many" - Contd
helen - 12, December, 2011 (6:01)

Good morning. V soggy here tdy, rain, r, & more r!
I DO feel sorry for those hooked on the terrible cigs. I have a br in-law in just that position who lives next door. He knows he's smoking himself to death but just can't stop! His teeth are gone & his lungs shot. His Dr said they are equiv to a 100yr old man & he is nowhere near that age. Still considering, his constitution must be strong for him to have stayed alive this long. Some are just SO addicted - Contd
Lorikeet - 11, December, 2011 (18:00)

I also don't think Helen should be able to get away with criticising people who smoke and drink, no matter how much she tries to excuse her own comment with preamble.

Both are very addictive, and NSA members should be proud of themselves for giving up, and not beat themselves up for past "sins".
Lorikeet - 11, December, 2011 (17:56)

Yes, if you don't rinse your teeth after eating and drinking, you can end up with damage to your teeth from acid erosion.

My ex-husband's dentist died long ago from cancer, at around age 50. I wondered if this was due to the old fashioned way of taking dental x-rays, which irradiated him.

My guess is that dentists have a very high rate of suicide for a couple of good reasons:

1. They feel guilty for ripping everyone off, and having mountains of money has not made them happy.

2. Some are very clever people who (like myself) have to put up with insulting people such as Helen thinking they are the ones who are stupid.

The Moderator needs to remove another of Helen's very derogatory comments. I visited my mother in aged care more than 1000 times. I should know what went on in a place where Helen did NOT work!
WEG - 11, December, 2011 (17:19)

Yup – can’t seem to get a word in edgeways. I’m vulnerable and a captured audience.
My dentist shows me his folder EVERY TIME, with all those disgusting pictures of diseased mouths / teeth.

Not sure why? I’m clean! Maybe it’s just to scare the living daylights out of me so I don’t fall into bad habits.

He’s also says every time, you don’t smoke, and you don’t drink carbonated drinks (like coke). He says he can tell as the results are obvious to him.

Yes – I use those small piksters ™, a wonderful invention for cleaning between teeth.
Bob B - 11, December, 2011 (16:43)

Weg

Isn't it because they become gob smacked very easily?
WEG - 11, December, 2011 (16:25)

I understand dentists have one of the highest suicide rates of the professions in Australia! Maybe it's because we have limited time to talk to them or answer their Q?s.
John O'Grady - 11, December, 2011 (15:46)

The thing that did stay around for years was the horrible dream. It set up a scene where I gave into the temptation and had a cigarette, thoroughly enjoyed and then felt a great self loathing, accusing myself of great social weakness and lacking any moral fibre, etc. Then there was the always welcome and beautiful awakening, sometimes calling out that it had only been a dream! We truly are weird creatures.
Helen - 11, December, 2011 (15:46)

(3) -I wonder if making them $50 a pkt if this would stop those addicted. I'm not sure if it would. Many won't stop until they get a health scare. Often by then it's too late.

I think too the cigs tdy are laced with crap where in the old days (even though they were still harmful) were at least real tobacco & the papers were just that.

I have to go now - have a great Sun night. I have traded my husband for my 13yr old grand-daughter until Wednesday. All's quiet at the moment. My son in the RAF is being trans & hubby is (I think) going to be a help. Just we girls, Her & me - Cheers...x
Helen - 11, December, 2011 (15:44)

(2) -Luckily it was benign, but she did lose most of her thyroid & now has to have treatment for this forever. Without sounding scathing & judgemental, smoking is a "selfish habit" & so addictive. The problems caused for children when tiny is mind blowing & those with croup with smoking parents are the one's we used to send off to hosp to be placed in Ox tents Contd -
Helen - 11, December, 2011 (15:42)

Afternoon everyone! This is my only entry today. Sorry for "blowing my top" I will be stronger next time. I refuse to even answer L in future and will pretend that she has been gobbled up by the B*ll S**t fairy & taken far away to the land where all the BS comes from & where they use torture to bring back sensibility if that's at all possible in this case!
It's amazing how many people have smoked in the past. My ML used to say you weren't a man unless you smoked (ref to her husband) who ended up with vascular dementia in the end.

It's one of the biggest "killers" of teeth unfortunately. A friend of mine smoked thru all her preg & didn't stop until she developed a tumour on her thyroid Contd -
John O'Grady - 11, December, 2011 (15:40)

Sue do-nim .... shouldn't that be spelt psydonom, or something like that??

We are all different and I guess that is a good thing. I, too always enjoyed a beer with a cigarette and the other 'trigger' was the end of a meal, always completed with coffee and a fag! I was able to disassociate these habits by drinking booze in differnt places (gave the pub a miss) and leaving the table immediately after the meal. It is truly amazing how quickly these habits can be replaced with those that are safer, healthier.
Sue Do-Nim - 11, December, 2011 (14:45)

John O’G:
When I stopped smoking nearly 3 years ago, I also stopped drinking alcohol.
I knew that if I gave up one and not the other that it simply wouldn’t work for me.
For many people the combination of smoking and drinking is extremely enjoyable.
Expensive, unhealthy but enjoyable.
I hope at some stage of my life I can summon enough willpower to be able to have a nice glass of wine without feeling the
craving for a cigarette.
Lorikeet - 11, December, 2011 (13:17)

I'm sure the public has been well educated over the years regarding dental health.

My father gave me a cigarette at age 13. I coughed, handed it back and still wonder why anyone would want to have their own little private bushfire burning in their lungs.

At age 16, I went to a 21st party, where other people's parents gave me 4 different drinks. The stairs swayed when I tried to walk down them, and when I went home I vomited into the bath. My parents grounded me for 2 weeks, and after that, I never had more than 1 drink anywhere I went.

I have always been a fast learner.

I drank 2 glasses of red wine at a conference recently, to stop a dairy farmer from dying of alcoholic poisoning. When 3 of us finished all of the plonk, he went home alive.
John O'Grady - 11, December, 2011 (12:49)

I certainly do not recommend the method for broad scale eradication of any addiction but it did work well. The really surprising thing about giving smoking away was the realisation that about 70% of the 'addiction' is really habit. Once broken, the craving is a great deal easier to tolerate and handle. I now need to find a way to give up the booze!
John O'Grady - 11, December, 2011 (12:45)

I smoked for about thirty years, around 15 a day. I quit the same year as Bob-B, 1986. I had had 4 - 5 attempts to stop and failed. That summer I was carting bulk wheat into a silo and dumping it through a floor grate, that is just opening the traps at the bottom of the bulk bin on a truck and letting it run. This created huge clouds of wheat dust and was a situation I had encountered many times before. That season, however the very abrasive nature of the dust did a lot of damage and an infection appeared in both lungs. Too crook to smoke for a couple of weeks or even want to, the infection was eventually subdued with medication. The addiction re emerged with a lot less intensity and I took the opportunity to use the advantage my body and mind had given me. I quit!!! And have not ever touched it since.
Kay Kelly - 11, December, 2011 (12:22)

(cont.)

My (second) husband used to smoke - not heavily but for about 50 years - outside only! - but quit around 4 years ago using a medication from his doctor which did seem to make it a bit easier. He'd still love a cigarette, but doesn't, but he says that the fact that none of our friends or relatives smoke makes it much easier to resist. He tried to quit a few times whilst he was working, but because most of his colleagues smoked, he found it impossible to stick with his resolution.
Kay Kelly - 11, December, 2011 (12:21)

OK, Sue Do-Nim, re smoking:

I have never smoked (apart from a few naughty experiments when I was about 9-10 and my friend's mum smoked). I was exposed to passive smoking all through my childhood as my father smoked heavily and smoked inside - ugh!! The stink was enough to stop me from taking up smoking myself! Just listening to the radio today, it appears around 35% of female lung cancer sufferers have never smoked. However, most were exposed to passive smoking in their childhoods. So I hope I don't get lung cancer!
Bob B - 11, December, 2011 (10:58)

Sue Do-Nim

Smoking in my house is banned. If someone did smoke inside they are off the welcome list family or not. I even don't like them smoking outside but that's as far as I go. I find a smoker who comes inside or jumps into a lift after having just butted out quite repulsive. If only they knew how they stink!!!!

I stopped in 1986.
Bob B - 11, December, 2011 (10:54)

Joma

Having read your comment again, that i9ncludes brushing, flossing and bottlebrushing - those little bottlebrushes that clen in between teeth.
Bob B - 11, December, 2011 (10:53)

Joma

I have an annual cleaning appointment with my dentist's hygenist. She is very good at 'training'. She notices little areas 'missed' and points out how to change habits.

So my dentist does 'advertise' once your inside and pay. How else are they going to catch people? Add on TV but who pays?
Joma - 11, December, 2011 (10:34)

Apart from a mouth full of fillings, which I could blame on not being made to clean my teeth when a child and living in the country without flourided water. I have never had any of the many dentists I have visited, from a child, givng me any advise on looking after my teeth.

Not one of them told me that if I did not get my teeth straightened they would wear down badly and need a large amount of money spent on them in the future.

It is about time that dentists did some advertisng on how to look after teeth, including the use of dental floss. A product that instantly gives you fresh breath.

A BIG BOO to Dentists.
Sue Do-Nim - 11, December, 2011 (10:22)

It’s amazing that in this day and age and with the heightened awareness of the dangers of smoking, that so many in our extended family still indulge .Even the youngies.

Do others notice that Seniors have given up in droves or are they still hooked on the lung busters and ignoring the perils.
Sue Do-Nim - 11, December, 2011 (10:21)

Kay K:
Off topic but…

When I was growing up in the 50’s most of my friends smoked cigarettes.

I smoked semi-regularly from about the age of 13 or 14.

I was one of those people that would best be described as a “social smoker”. At Christmas time or family do’s I’d light up and enjoy a cigarette with a glass of chilled beverage.

About 5 years ago I became a heavy smoker..about 30 a day. It was then that I knew smoking was affecting my health ,and budget, so I decided to give them away.

It will be 3 years next April since I’ve had a puff .My family are all coming to Qld. to spend Christmas with us and only two of us will be non smokers.

Cont’d
Robyn - 11, December, 2011 (8:29)

Stings momentarily.
Lorikeet - 11, December, 2011 (7:49)

Does it sting if applied after shaving, Robyn?
Robyn - 11, December, 2011 (6:40)

Bicarbonate soda is the very best deodorant . Just a tiny amount applied like talc.
Kay Kelly - 11, December, 2011 (5:54)

Sue Do-Nim

I'm sticking with it, too. No doubt provocation may occur, but .... Thank you for the timely reminder.

This blog has been pretty good. But the topic seems to running out of content. Anyone got a good issue they would like to discuss in amongst the dental care issue?
Bob B - 10, December, 2011 (20:12)

Sue Do-Nim

I'm holding my line whatever. I'm distracted being very busy with loads of other things and am getting frustrated trying to convert a video from my camera into a format I can show on TV. Getting closer by playing with the bit rate. Yes, I can play it directly from the camera into the TV but when I combine three vids into one and put it on a USB stick it goes awry. To tired now so tomorrow amoungst other things maybe.
Lorikeet - 10, December, 2011 (19:51)

Sue-Do-Nim:

You could try adopting a more mature attitude and contributing something worthwhile to the debate.

There's nothing worse than over-50s behaving like children on a blog.
Lorikeet - 10, December, 2011 (19:49)

For those who aren't aware, the situation with oral hygiene has become so terrible in aged care centres that the Dept of Health & Ageing has had to put some new guidelines in place to correct it.
Lorikeet - 10, December, 2011 (19:43)

Helen:

What you describe never happened in the 7 years my mother lived in a corporate aged care centre. She only died about 6 months ago.

It is also impossible to take people's natural teeth away to clean.

I had to buy all of my mother's toiletries, because the corporate sector simply didn't provide them (another breach of legislation). I once bought several toothbrushes and put them away in Mum's bedroom cupboard. Nurses redistributed them to other residents who had none.

I referred only to my own and my mother's experience in one aged care centre. After investigators came, nearly all of the Aussie nurses resigned.

There was always a constant stream of departures to the church sector, who employ more staff, pay better wages and generally treat their residents with greater respect.

In this place, it was not uncommon for 2 hearing aids to go through the wash in one day.
Sue Do-Nim - 10, December, 2011 (18:05)

I thought our little “experiment” was going quite well..

Everyone sticking solid...UNTIL…

One person weakens.

You know who you are don’t you?

Couldn’t help yourself.

You took her bait, hook ,line and sinker.
Helen - 10, December, 2011 (15:53)

(3) You really do talk a lot of rubbish at times you know & this was one of those occasions!...

Closing down now. I am quite angry about that statement as it makes out that nursing homes are all like that & it is simply NOT true...
Helen - 10, December, 2011 (15:52)

(2) What you said is a load of nonsense! If a hearing aid got washed, it would be accidental. I never saw it happen ever (in twelve years) of working in many different places.

Only once a young nurse doing her practical collected teeth in a bucket & took them to the treatment room to wash them . The sister nearly had a heart attack. Luckilly they were all labelled with the person's name & on that floor of more than thirty, the young nurse had to match them & do the right thing. That was the only case I ever saw. We all laughed about it for ages & the poor young nurse was v red faced. - Contd -
Helen - 10, December, 2011 (15:49)

Lorikeet - What you said re nursing homes is not true! I have worked in more NH than I care to think of and the same procedure is in all of them. The teeth are gathered in their cups taken to the treatment room & cleaned with THEIR tooth brushes & placed beside their beds. This happens after supper at night & they are given back in the morning for breakfast after 6.30am. All hearing aids are placed in their cases along with the glasses placed into their draws. Contd -
Lorikeet - 10, December, 2011 (13:24)

The Carbon Tax is solely about a financial Climate Change, as is the importation of "cheap" foreign goods. This Air Tax will drive even more industries out of our nation, and send small to medium manufacturers broke.

Bankers will soon get the green light to charge any interest rate of their choosing, so they can gradually manipulate and take over the housing market. The ANZ has already stated its intention to act independently of the RBA.
Lorikeet - 10, December, 2011 (13:23)

Helen:

I think you would be wise to further investigate issues of trade, manufacturing costs and the huge number of workers who have lost their jobs in 2011 alone.

I bought knitting yarn made here in Brisbane very recently. Not only was the quality higher than imported yarns, but the price was lower as well.

Last week I bought shoes made in China. The left shoe was smaller than the right. When I returned the shoes to the shop, the assistant and I looked at all of the shoes in that colour and type, and not a single pair of shoes were a matching size.

According to Senator Madigan and our party leader who have investigated manufacturing issues in Victoria, we can manufacture various items here in Australia at competitive prices, without creating any pollution shipping items back and forth across the oceans.
Lorikeet - 10, December, 2011 (13:11)

Two sisters who were both Registered Nurses took their mother out of the same corporate run aged care centre because a blood disease was being spread.

"All that glitters is not gold."

This place had whole teams of overdressed, overpaid executives swanning about, while both the workers and the residents got a raw deal.

Even when several breaches were found by investigators from the Dept of Health & Ageing, it was not put on the public record.
Lorikeet - 10, December, 2011 (13:09)

Most of the elderly people living in this iniquitous place had rotting teeth which broke off due to lack of oral hygiene.

When my sister and I took Mum to the dentist, he wanted to pull all of her teeth out. My brother was in agreement, but we women said "No!"

The dentist's reasoning was that people were better off with dentures if they lived in aged care.

I had made a close friend of one of the laundry workers. She said dentures, hearing aids, pens, tissues, money, cigarettes and even **** all went through the wash on a regular basis.

The cheapest hearing aids cost $1000 a pair. Once they've been through the wash, they are cactus. I don't know how much dentures cost, but I think it would be a lot more.
Lorikeet - 10, December, 2011 (13:08)

rmcn:

Thanks for the information.

Like Kay, I tried a product that was aluminium-free some years back and didn't like it much. I prefer to use roll-ons because they don't put particles into the air. I think most men prefer aerosols due to underarm hair. I will certainly take your advice and investigate what is currently available.

I've also been thinking about the issue of disease getting into the body through infected gums etc. If germs, viruses, mycoplasms, amoebas etc are swallowed, the HCl (hydrochloric acid) in the stomach has a fair chance of killing them.

Even in the most modern nursing homes, High Care residents share bathrooms with at least one other person. They each get one side of a cabinet to store their toiletry items.

Very often my mother finished up with the other person's toothbrush! At one time, I was told that my mother had contracted a blood disease, but no further details were given.
diane - 10, December, 2011 (11:49)

I broke the front of one of my teeth
Quote one $2274
Quote two $3345 same dentist just different ways of fixing it, rang another dentist they asked for item numbers were the same cost. Because Mutual Community fix the cost by Item number i will receive about $1200 back from mutual > Is this not price Fixing
Kay Kelly - 10, December, 2011 (11:33)

At one stage - maybe 10-15 years back - I got worried about aluminium in my underarm anti-perspirant/deodorant. I started using one - I think from the supermarket - it was based on tea-tree or something. Anyway, after a few months I stopped using it because it wasn't terribly effective. But it is very hot and sticky up here!

But I'm pretty sure they sell aluminium-free roll-ons and sprays in the supermarket. Obviously a pharmacist could advise re a good/popular one. I'm sure the ingredients are listed on them all.

I guess I have just given up - I use the most effective one I can find for this climate. At long last the wet has started. The humidity at home here today is 89%!
Helen - 10, December, 2011 (10:56)

Harley Davidson had nothing to do with Climate Change L. Aussie workers are paid too much by world standards (believe it or not!). It pushes the prices of everything up here making our prod exp.

Also if the Co can't keep up with the times, sad as it might be, they are leaving us like Anthony Hordens, Farmers, Waltons & a myriad of other large org now gone. I hate to see it too, v sad..

They ar getting $10,000 ea to go toward training for another job + what is due to them, so they won't be too bad now at Xmas. Others have not been that kind...
rmcn - 10, December, 2011 (10:43)

Lorikeet, With regard to the aluminium free deodorant - the one I use is Redwin. It's an Australian product, and is a spray. I havent seen any aluminium free that are roll ons. There are several brands but are difficult to find in supermarkets. Check them out in the discount chemist stores. After all why apply aluminium directly to your skin to be absorbed!!
Lorikeet - 10, December, 2011 (7:19)

Helen:

That's right. We're not smarter than nature, but many scientists think that they are. There are 100 areas of expertise attached to Climate Science.

I'm afraid you have swallowed the bait, hook, line and sinker, while I continue to support moderate environmental policies. Excessively Green policies are already landing tens of thousands of workers onto the street, and onto the dole.

This helps to destroy our economy all the quicker, along with a Carbon Tax, the loan to Greece that will never be repaid and the ongoing battle to manufacture anything here in Australia.

Last night on the news, Harley Davidson had fired its Australian workers right before Christmas, and is taking its business to China.

How long will it take before Australians wake up to the abyss into which we are gradually being lowered?
Lorikeet - 10, December, 2011 (7:13)

Yes, I think John O'Grady, Kay and I are all referring to the same federal government scheme provided through the Department of Health & Ageing.

Kevin Rudd tried unsuccessfully to shut it down in 2008, but it was blocked in the Senate. It also includes the teen program for dentistry which I mentioned. I should have known that was not an initiative of Anna Bligh (Labor).

Labor/Greens plan is to set up superclinics with access to multiple services, but they are clearly phasing out plenty of dentists and doctors, in favour of Dental Therapists/Hygienists and Nurse Practitioners, as per the Peasant Village plan.

If you have a medical/dental condition requiring multi-disciplinary assistance from at least 3 specialists as I outlined before, you may be eligible for subsidised dental treatment.

As WEG has said, diseases enter the body through the mouth and teeth. I think it would be worth investigating eligibility.
Helen - 10, December, 2011 (7:06)

WEG You are "spot on"!

L - The planet can cope with what is natural. It can't cope with what is not. WE as a race are tipping the balance & rain forests are disappearing all around the world along with other vegetation. They are the "Liver" of the earth. We have to right this wrong for future generations by fixing what humans have managed to "stuff up" over the last few centuries. Are we smarter than nature - NO WE ARE NOT! - This is my opinion.

Bob B - that's OK. You always make good sense & I enjoy your input to the blog!

I am v busy this week-end everyone, lot's of visitors (family), so don't know when I'll be back.

Have a great week-end...
Lorikeet - 10, December, 2011 (6:58)

I am also thankful for restoration of the "Shopping Online" comments. More recently, I have become very concerned about the loss of Australian jobs (shop assistants, manufacturing workers) and the net effect on the Australian economy.

Last night's news had comments made about no GST applying to foreign goods bought online and the government being deprived of revenue.

My brother says he buys absolutely nothing on line. He wants to check everything out with his own eyes before purchase. He also doesn't want to pay for goods which may never arrive, or need to be returned due to poor quality, imperfections or unsuitability.

Those of us who are still able, would be wise to get out to the shops to purchase goods. If we help to send the government broke, pensions will be cut. For me, it's a matter of the big picture, so I would prefer to shop at sales rather than kneecap the economy.
Lorikeet - 10, December, 2011 (6:49)

rmcn:

I think I heard about the issue with deodorants a few years ago. Can you please tell us which brands you have found to be safe?
Robyn - 10, December, 2011 (6:17)

Moderator,

I just discovered you restored the strand: "Shopping On Line: Risky or worth it?"

THANK YOU.
rmcn - 9, December, 2011 (21:54)

Helen, I'm reading your comment of 12 hours ago about aluminium and the links to dementia. About 10 years ago I read about aluminium and also its links to cancer, in particular breast cancer. The article I read pointed to underarm deodorants. Just go look at the contents of the deodorant you use. Aluminium!!!!! Why??? You spread aluminium into the pores of your armpit! There are several brands that are aluminium free, I have bought them ever since. Anyone reading please think about doing the same
Kay Kelly - 9, December, 2011 (19:11)

I believe John O'Grady (13:19 9/12) is referring to the scheme I mentioned at 15:25 8/12, and subsequently gave the web address at 20:03 8/12.

It was initiated by the Howard government. The current government is trying to wind it down, and has reneged on payments to some dentists in Queensland.
WEG - 9, December, 2011 (16:54)

Dental hygiene is the most important issue for the human race. We introduce to our mouths almost everything we touch / eat / whatever.
It’s the “vacuum cleaner” for our bodies.

Most infections are introduced through this orifice. If you have gum disease, for example, it can introduce some severe blood disorders, that infect many of the main organs.

Get a health check every 6 months. Regular health check ups with Dentist / Doctors is essential for Seniors ‘quality of life’. It’s a small price to pay if you consider the alternatives.
Bob B - 9, December, 2011 (16:20)

Helen

Your 'reminder' was tastily put. Thank you for softly recognising my human frailty.

Off now to Movie World's White Christmas show - we were given tickets to the Charity Night in recognition of some assistance we provided a friend who is a councillor.
Lorikeet - 9, December, 2011 (15:13)

Planet Earth has a finite amount of every element in variable forms. If you look out of an aircraft window, you will see large expanses of trees which contain carbon, along with the people's and animal's bodies. Houses and furniture all contain carbon.

The Carbon Religion is just a bunch of hocus pocus to flummox everyone so they will be less likely to complain about moves towards a peasant diet/lifestyle.

While the jury is out on fluoride, the best idea is not to let a possible villain run amok in the water supply.

"If in doubt ... leave it out."

I don't have fluoride put on my teeth at all. I use fluoride toothpaste and have not had a filling for a decade or more.

John O'Grady is probably talking about the scheme I previously mentioned which involved seeing an exercise physiologist, dietician, psychologist, dentist and doctor (depending on your particular need).
Bob B - 9, December, 2011 (14:09)

I have asked the author to ponder our use of coal.

Coal is produced by forests and green stuff becoming peat in the rotting proces and then with pressure and heat lignite and finally coal. There is a finite amount of cao. availabe to us and its sustainable replenishment depends on how fast we use it and how long the coal production process takes. We might well burn more coal to produce more food for more people but I sense that will cease to be a sustainable process at some point. Then we die as a race.
Bob B - 9, December, 2011 (14:02)

Sue Do-Nim

I think we make good company - silly old sausages.
Bob B - 9, December, 2011 (14:00)

cont ...

It fell to current levels about 300 million yrs ago then up about 2500 ppm 150 million yrs ago steadily falling since. 1000ppm is about 0.1% so 7000 ppm is still under 1%. An important 'fact' is that less than 150 ppm there is no life (forests, plants = food) and more CO2 = more life (food).

390 ppm today feeds 6.8 billion people and if it rises to 750 ppm it will feed 10.2 billion people with no extra land, seed, cultivation and water. If this is true and it haas its base in experimentation then we need to double our CO2 content not tax heavy producers.

This is a quite different perspctive on what we are being told. My source ISBN 978-0-9871213-0-1 Carbon Dioxide feeds the world by John Robertson.
Bob B - 9, December, 2011 (14:00)

Helen

It seems there are couple of silly old sausages on the blog now.

You are right. My mind was muddled because I have been reading a boolket that talks about CO2 in ppm (volumetric). We are at about 390 ppm vs 280 ppm earlier so it is currently rising. In Cambrian times (500 million yrs ago) it was 7000 ppm.

Cont ....
John O'Grady - 9, December, 2011 (13:19)

About a year ago I stumbled upon a National scheme, the name of which I cannot remember but something like 'the family medical support scheme'. It is/was designed to keep people out of hospital and was aimed at those who had pre chronic conditions. It had to be recommended and signed off by a G.P. and may well be the benefit already described under other names in this blog. I qualified for it because of my age (70) and medical obesity, a considered pre diabetic state. It included $4,300.00 worth of dental treatment, all of which I legitimitely needed, wanted and used. It has also funded an intensive weight loss programme and a few other items forgotten. It was funded by medicare so I guessed it to be National.
Helen - 9, December, 2011 (12:53)

Bob. My info is that CO2 is toxic in higher concentrations 1% (10,000ppm) will make some feel drowsy. Concentrations of 7%-10% cause dizziness, headache, visual & hearing dysfunction & unconsciousness within minutes to an hr.

Re-forestation is one of the good things to be happening now & better tech to better balance what is not natural. Also just cleaning up "pollution" in general. All this will help future generations & help fix what everyone up to now has managed to damage.

Even if you don't believe in G warming, you have to admit, especially up north from me & everywhere really we are getting rather strange weather these last few years (word wide). I also don't believe that we have to wait & CAN be a role model for other C/trys. So much for teeth! I have to go now & can't come back til tomorrow - Cheers everyone...x
Sue Do-Nim - 9, December, 2011 (12:26)

WEG:

It’s Sue again,

Oh dear..I’m such a silly old sausage.

I’ve been played for a fool…haven’t I.

My worst fears have been realised….you’re not really a dentist…are you?

When will I learn?..This internet thingie can be so dangerous.
Kay Kelly - 9, December, 2011 (12:15)

WEG (cont)

The currently accepted view at the moment is that the level of fluoridation is important (most recommend below 1%), but of course the age and size of people, and the quantity of water consumed all can have impacts. The ones we need to be careful with are small children. I gather they recommend not using fluoridated toothpaste, or toothpaste with very low levels of fluoride, for very young children because they often swallow the toothpaste (makes sense!).

Anyway, at this point there is no link shown between fluoride and dementia. That is not to say there is any proof it doesn't influence the onset of dementia. There is so little knowledge in any case about the causes of dementia. Who knows? I think Helen is correct - everything in moderation!
Kay Kelly - 9, December, 2011 (12:14)

Yes, WEG, there certainly is a lot on the web about fluoride, both supportive and critical.

I prefer to read peer-reviewed scientific studies/reviews than some alarmist propaganda. I gather that where problems occur with fluorine toxicity, it is usually where there are extremely high levels of naturally occurring fluorides in the ground water (eg India). Of course there is the usual ethical debate about whether fluoridation of water is 'mass medication' or a defensible public heath measure. One can debate that on and on.
Bob B - 9, December, 2011 (11:33)

Helen

I don't believe carbon dioxide becomes toxic until it starts to reduce the oxygen levels in the air and that is an aweful lot of carbon dioxide. Humans need a concentration of 17% oxygen (at sea level) in the air to survive but there is another influence as pollutants can reduce the body's ability to extract oxygen from the air we breathe. In polluted air the level rises above 17%.

What's this got to do with teeth? I suppose we need to be alive for teeth to be an issue and healthy also meaning we need a good supply of oxygen.
Jim - 9, December, 2011 (11:03)

A topic which must be discussed; good teeth and correct maintenance lead to good health; back in the 1940's the only answer was to get them removed (about age 21, when the wisdom teeth were established) then fit dentures. This was the the custom; not a very good one, in my opinion. I would rather pay for good dentistry and do without the latest plasma TV, if that is what it takes.
Helen - 9, December, 2011 (10:57)

Carbon dioxide is taken in by trees & green vegetation to produce oxygen for us, true. BUT if there are no trees or green veg & the level rises over and above what can be coped with, it then becomes toxic so I agree with Bob here.

We are doing this at a v high rate here WEG, so I don't support your arguement at all.

I have also had flouride in the water until the last couple of years without any problems. There can be a problem with "staining" of the teeth with the flouride & some of the toothpastes on the market.

I'm not sure about now, but years ago it happened often. The stains would go when the toothpaste was changed to one without. Perhaps things are balanced better now. I won't use toothpaste with F & choose to have my dentist put it on at our check up...
Tony - 9, December, 2011 (10:44)

When medicare was created dental was part of the package but it was dropad out because of the cost. We now have third world oral health. Lets now bite the bullet and get on with it, by introducing it gragully over 10years as there are not enough dentists or graguates coming through universaities at the moment. It could be done like this. Starting with a rebate of 10% and an increase of .1% increase in the medicare levy over a period of 8or9 years until it is the same percentage as doctors rebates, eventually making the medecare levelly 1% higher than it is now. In the mean time for those of us who can offord private dental insurance this will cover most of the gap and the premeums will decrese over time and the other goverment dental schemes can be phased out.
weg - 9, December, 2011 (10:36)

....just a matter of degrees I suspect in both cases & depends on who's opinion it is.
Bob B - 9, December, 2011 (10:27)

WEG

Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant - its plant food!!

I suspect floride in our water is not toxic but in higher concentrations it is a proven toxic substance.
WEG - 9, December, 2011 (10:19)

I’ve lived with fluoridation since 1971. Even NZ have fluoridation. Did you know, prior 1950’s fluoride was generally considered to be a toxic environmental pollutant?

Sounds familiar? Now we have Carbon Dioxide.

Bob B (not Brown) (19:29), and reference to “fang Farrier” - One of my closest friends has the best white teeth ever seen by the Doctor.

As Lorikeet suggests (20:50), it’s all to do with genetics (good breeding), a good standard of hygiene, a good diet, 6 monthly check ups, and plenty of fresh tap water.

The only problem, she can’t use a tooth brush for obvious reasons as she has no arms / hands. So she uses a heavy duty ‘chew’ – it does wonders and keeps the breath nice and fresh. I’ve also noticed, her teeth never wear out – how does she do it?

PS: Interesting topic – lots of research material available on the internet.
Bob B - 9, December, 2011 (10:15)

Helen

Aluminium has been avoided for years in our place. However, we still have an aluminium double saucepan we use for things like yummy brandy sauce at Christmas time. Every time I look for a s/s replacement all I can find is a steamer set. Staff at places like DJs just shrug and say they don't have any. Will keep looking though. Its not used all that often.
Helen - 9, December, 2011 (10:03)

I ommitted to say that we all use "stainless steel" cook ware now, so the aluminium problem is not there unless people take products containing aluminium (some tummy products).

If you have alumumium cookware or drink bottles, better throw them out & get modern (& never leave food in alumium pots, EVER)...
Helen - 9, December, 2011 (9:57)

(3) The motto, everything in moderation keeps are all healthy. Too much or too little of anything is not good. Somewhere in between is the way to go. Unfortunately by the time we are at retirement age, the damage is done and that's another story...

Sorry to be all technical here...
Helen - 9, December, 2011 (9:56)

(2) I was told when I was pregnant to "chew" the calcium tablets. It is the only way our teeth can benefit as the baby takes everything from the mother particularly if she is a bit deficient in anything. Also we need vit C to metabolise calcium. It also helps too in formation of dentine in the teeth to keep them healthy.

Vit B also helps. without some ( fat soluble) vitamins and the former, water soluble that are lost in cooking etc,fat soluble vit can be lost when people are vegetarians & go on weird diets leaving out any kind of animal protein. We can't absorb the vitamins to keep our bones & teeth healthy Contd -
Helen - 9, December, 2011 (9:52)

There is a link re "aluminium" in Dementia suffers incl Alz (which is diff).

There's is some invidence that flouride can "leach" our the aluminum from cook ware but this is not conclusive. Aluminium has been long known to be suspect for many yrs. It's not wise to take Milanta & any tummy potions containing aluminum. There are many prod that contain calcium/magnesium. These are good too as they give us a calcium boost whilst getting rid of indigestion (and are harmless). cont
Kay Kelly - 9, December, 2011 (9:41)

Moderator

Could we please have an increase to our word limit from 160 to at least 200 - 250! As you can see, your imposition of the 160 word limit some topics ago has achieved nothing other than annoying us bloggers! And to make matters worse, there is no concurrent word count.

No substantive response can be achieved in 160 words. All that happens is that we have to post a string of them, causing disruption to the thread of logic, especially when other bloggers' comments interpose.

This has been a consistent request from many bloggers now. Please reconsider.
Jane Pullenvale - 9, December, 2011 (9:07)

The bread and butter dentistry of fillings has largely disappeared because of kids now routinely having fluoride. So, the new industry is braces, whitening, veneers, crowns etc. These are largely optional, so the poor dentists have to put prices up on everything to make ends meet. Those of us unfortunate enough not to have had the benefits of fluoride and have the legacy of failing amalgam fillings and decay have to pay more, as generation x and y use basic dentistry less and less. And OF COURSE, the elephant in the room is the grotesque fees charged for the most basic of services.
Dentists keep whinging about needing more and more public funding, while raising these ridiculous prices. It's extraordinary how such private professionals always expect the public purse to subsidise their outrageous pay packets.
Robyn - 9, December, 2011 (9:05)

Bob B,
Besides, have only had this iPad 4 weeks or so. Where could this stuff be coming from?
Bob B - 9, December, 2011 (9:04)

cont ....

Those who have undergone this procedure will know what I am talking about - litres of not too nice a fluid to down in a day with a controlled diet and no food at all after a skimpy breakfast the day before. I present at the day hospital 1:30 pm the next day. So Saturday (very controlled intake), Sunday (light b'fast and his prep fluid only) and Monday (only his prep fluid at 7:00 and nil by mouth from 10:30) until I awake in recovery. Its worth the effort and I need to loose a few pounds anyway.

160 words is really to few.
Bob B - 9, December, 2011 (9:04)

Kay

Thanks for your kind words. I am clean now but with a few little reminders others don't notice. I'm well and truly past the 5 years mark and have three yearly colonoscopies - one Monday week. Intestingly, my surgeon has changed from the easy prep to the longer prep which I had for the one that found the problem back in 2004. Cont ....
Robyn - 9, December, 2011 (8:58)

Bob B (8:51)'

Th first time it happened I did not have AutoFill operating.
Bob B - 9, December, 2011 (8:51)

Robyn

It would sem the Clipboard is not the problem. Something else is contaminating autofill.
Mary - 9, December, 2011 (8:15)

I neglected to say that as our teeth are a part of our body and play a big part in our overall health, I cannot understand why they are not included in medicare, unless of course the dentists simply charge too much.
Mary - 9, December, 2011 (8:13)

As an age pensioner I simply do not have the money for dentists. The first time some enamel fell from a tooth I felt like an old hag. My teeth were filled from childhood with mercury fillings, a sign of bad eating habits I guess when young; lots of sweets. The last tooth I had filled properly cost me $1000.00 and no, it was not a post. I've had other teeth lose their enamel and old fillings but certainly do not want false teeth until there is no option. Fortunately, most of these holes are towards the back of my mouth. I hate it.
Lorikeet - 9, December, 2011 (8:02)

Most of the evolutionary changes that have occurred in humans (height, weight, smaller jaw) are of dietary origin.

The eating of hard raw foods used to keep the jaws strong, the teeth clean and the body slim, so Helen is quite correct in saying we eat too many soft foods. If you wanted a sugar hit in the distant past, you had to grab an apple, which still remains a reasonable tooth cleaner.

Apples also contain salicylates (an aspirin-like pain killer) and malic acid (gives an energy boost, and is particularly good for people suffering from Chronic Fatigue Syndrome). Cooked or grated apples are also good for those on a light diet, recovering from an illness.

If you have a gastrointestinal upset, following the BRAT dietary model is recommended by doctors:

Bananas
Rice
Apples
Toast
Lorikeet - 9, December, 2011 (7:55)

I think the high level of orthodontic treatment is part of the spoiling process, and the idea that we should all aspire to looking like models. This has also caused higher levels of anorexia nervosa and bulimia in increasingly younger girls.

When a neighbour's young daughter developed buck teeth, she had to wear a device inside her mouth (not braces) that spread her teeth out in a wider arc. This seemed to solve the problems associated with a narrow jaw. I thought it had worked a miracle.

Some unfortunate women have their teeth turn to chalk during pregnancy and they need to wear dentures for the rest of their lives. I'm not sure how great a part the dietary intake of calcium plays in the destruction of these women's teeth.

A dentist told me that osteoporosis (calcium loss) doesn't affect the teeth, only the bones.
Robyn - 9, December, 2011 (7:54)

Helen,

When one of my daughters had orthodontic work done as a teen, I was told that our gum space has been decreasing over several centuries. Our wisdom teeth which used to have practical benefit rarely fit in anymore. One of those evolutionary changes. Another is height - we are all growing taller.
Lorikeet - 9, December, 2011 (7:46)

It is now believed that high levels of consumption of fluoride may contribute to the development of dementia, since it has been found in the brains of dementia sufferers, along with aluminium.

I agree that good dental hygiene is more important than fluoride consumption.

The government says it has ended up between a rock and a hard place due to parents' neglect of their children's teeth. If they gave it further consideration, they would know that today's parents are often very spoilt people who were raised with "Me Syndrome" indoctrination, and the idea that their rights outweigh their responsibilities. Social engineers have also taught them that toddlers are mini-adults who can make their own choices about everything (including toothbrushing and food consumption).

I thought Everald Crompton did a good job of highlighting the need for responsible citizenship, before he resigned as Chairman of the NSA at age 80.
Helen - 9, December, 2011 (7:37)

(2)We never got soft drinks v often as children & I don't drink them now. I love to chew bones (& rip all the meat of), it's v yummy! I do believe nowadays people eat too much "soft" food. Eating food that makes our jaws work o/time is good for not only our teeth but faces too as it works the muscles & keeps them healthy.

where we live now we have tank water. Our dentist puts flouride on our teeth each six months.

Have you noticed that in every household, most of the children require orthodontal straightening & removal of teeth due to over crowding? There were fewer people in the old days needing this. Perhaps some with protruding or bucked teeth to give them a beautiful smile. This was a more a hereditory problem as a rule. Now it's just about everyone...
Lorikeet - 9, December, 2011 (7:37)

When someone I know who was very poor damaged a tooth, he had to wait a short time for public treatment called a "Field Dressing". This is a stop gap measure until your tooth can be properly fixed. The treatment was useless.

My dentist is in a catchment area comprising a spectrum of people from very poor to very rich. He is a very good dentist, but the economic downturn in our nation seems to have driven down his fees.

Medicare could try setting realistic charges for doctors, dentists (and now nurses) which are indexed against inflation once or twice a year, along with rebates.

This would shorten public hospitals queues for starters.

The government could easily fund Medicare for an increased number of services by reviving our manufacturing industries and making sure we can trade on a level playing field. This would greatly reduce welfare costs and improve citizens' ability to pay their own dental and medical costs.
Helen - 9, December, 2011 (7:33)

Good morning! Where we lived before we had flouride in the water. Neither of our children have ever had fillings then or now.

Children's teeth also depend on mum's health whilst preg as well as diet. Smoking is the biggest destroyer of teeth, causing gum disease. Drug taking in the young destroys the teeth big time! I always floss & clean my teeth twice a day (& sometimes in between). Always rinse my mouth after eating too. It's the way I was brought up. My teeth are v good Contd -
Robyn - 9, December, 2011 (7:32)

Bob B,

Thanks for your advice at (7:07). I am a bit of a dummy with computers and don't really understand things like clip boards etc. The technical stuff that comes up appears to be an email conversation between two people.
Kay Kelly - 9, December, 2011 (7:28)

(cont.)

As for it being a toxin - we eat and are exposed to so many foods/pollutants that are considered to be toxic, that worrying about fluoride is the least of my concerns. It won't be fluoride that kills me!!! As it turns out, we have been on tank water for the past 6 years (no reticulated water available) - but use fluoridated toothpaste.
Kay Kelly - 9, December, 2011 (7:27)

Bob B.

Sorry to hear about your past problems. I sincerely hope all is well now!!!

I too support fluoridation. It was interesting that here in Brisbane when the proposal was made (about time!!!) to fluoridate the water, it was clear that people in Townsville (which had fluoridated water) had a very significantly lower incidence of tooth cavities than people in Brisbane. Statistically, the incidence of good dental hygiene would be similar across both populations. Of course, the USA is well known for having much better teeth than most other nations and it has had fluoridation for many generations.
Bob B - 9, December, 2011 (7:22)

Heather

I've got to admit it took the shock of periodontal treatment to change my cleaning habits which now work a treat. Electric toothbrush for at least the timed two minutes, one of those little bottlerushes between the teeth and two or three times a week a good mouth wash.

Pleasingly, our grandkids have good cleaning habits but like all kids they need reminding. They are planned to stay with us after christmas again this year just an 8 and 6 year old and Nan & Pop. THey will be asked 'did they clean theie teeth properly' etc before bed every night as happens in their own home.
Christine Blegg - 9, December, 2011 (7:21)

So many people can afford holidays and other luxury items and still get free dentures etc under public schemes or neglect to have other essential dental treatment because "they cannot afford it". Perhaps they need to look at their priorities and the public scheme could go further to those really in need.
Bob B - 9, December, 2011 (7:16)

Pam

Yes its not good enough. Why it occurs is that there is insufficient money to treat people on presentation so they are prioritised on the basis of need. The high priority go first so you need to have an abscess or similar to jump up the queue. Its a matter of inadequate funds for what could be a good and worthwhile program.
Heather C-D - 9, December, 2011 (7:13)

My dentist says that fluoride helps prevent teeth decay but the best prevention is regular brushing and flossing.

I would never think about going to bed without brushing my teeth but have seen my grandkids do that - they don't know how to brush properly and their parents don't check that they use toothpaste - 10 second brushing with water just doesn't do it.

Pam Alderson, that's terrible about making you come back ...
Bob B - 9, December, 2011 (7:11)

The free trips after 10 in SEQld was so transparent that it hardly rated a mention in the media. Simply more dumb stuff from a dumb government flailing for survival.
Kay Kelly - 9, December, 2011 (7:07)

Pam

If that is the practice in the northern Brisbane suburbs - someone I know was also eligible for dental assistance. She had a root therapy done (because of an abscess) - the root split - had to be extracted - was replaced FREE by a crown and bridge - a very expensive procedure (I know from my own experience).

I have had abscesses on about 8 - 9 of my teeth (followed by root therapy, and for some, a crown). The trouble is, you don't know a nerve is dead until it gets an abscess (the pain certainly lets you know then). I believe it would then qualify as 'emergency treatment'.

Even when you pay for dental care, you usually don't know that you've got a real problem until an abscess forms. An untreated abscess could adversely affect your health (not to mention the excruciating pain) so it has to be treated.
Bob B - 9, December, 2011 (7:07)

Robyn

Autofill is good when it works. Maybe its using what you have in the clipboard if you are getting a lot of funny stuff. When you cut and paste and copy things, the clipboard is the repositry of that data. I'm no expert but that where I would start looking.
Heather C-D - 9, December, 2011 (7:06)

When I was growing up, my parents drummed it into us kids to look after our teeth as they are the only ones we'd ever have. My father had false teeth so I guess that's where they were coming from.

I was stunned when my young hairdresser told me she needed 14 fillings-naturally she hadn't been to the dentist in years!

Turns out she drank around 2 litres of Coke per day which stripped the enamel and rotted her teeth.

She said she wasn't worried as she could always get false teeth ... a sad indictment on the "throw-away" society today.
Robyn - 9, December, 2011 (7:06)

Kay,
Re your comment at (6:48): I agree. All governments play the same game.

Pam Alderson,
What you describe is terrible and just further evidence of government help that is really no help!
Bob B - 9, December, 2011 (7:04)

Kay, funny how it seems to be the inlet or the outlet that causes great cost. I have had very expensive periodontist work done and am a bowel cancer survivor (radiography, chemo, surgery with complications etc.). Luckily the RAAF paid the priodontist and Vet Affairs paid for the bowel cancer.

Without going into reams of explanation, I support floridation. When we moved from no floride in the water to floride in the water the dental requirements noticeably dropped.
Sue Do-Nim - 9, December, 2011 (7:02)

Although I don’t adopt a misandric view in relation to most professions.
I really do think that women make better dentists.

Any thoughts WEG?
Robyn - 9, December, 2011 (6:54)

Very strange Kay because I didn't do it! I have AutoFill and all was normal when I hit the submit button. It just popped up that way. Twice now over the past few weeks I have been writing my comment when suddenly it gets all filled up with very long reams of technical jargon coming from somewhere else. It has then taken me ages to disentangle it all. Has this happened to anyone else?
Kay Kelly - 9, December, 2011 (6:48)

Robyn

Re your comment about the Howard government giving some benefit that wasn't really much of a benefit - that is a trait common to all governments!

Here in Qld, the Labor government was upset by everyone saying that train fares were too expensive. So it decided, in its wisdom, to give the commuter public a real boost - after paying for 10 trips in a week, the rest of the trips would be free! Wow! Commuters only do 10 trips per week! The number of people thus assisted could be counted by the fingers on one hand! Typical!
Pam Alderson - 9, December, 2011 (6:46)

I have a number of teeth needing attention; I am eligible to funded dental care through Peninsula Community Health Service and I am on waiting list but when I went to seek help I was told I would have to wait until a tooth abscessed. This has already happened once before. Not good enough.
Robyn - 9, December, 2011 (6:41)

Kay,

Don't all dentists charge like The Light Brigade? I can understand why though because their costs must be extremely high with all that equipment and staff.

I feel torn as to whether fluoride in the water supply is a good or bad thing, so have no firm view on it. However, do want to say that my children grew up on tank rainwater and also have excellent teeth with very few fillings at age 40 and 30's.
Kay Kelly - 9, December, 2011 (6:32)

Robyn

Maybe you were subliminally thinking of setting up a dental practice? Called DrillsRUs?
Kay Kelly - 9, December, 2011 (6:28)

For all you bloggers who have concerns about fluoride - there is no doubt that in areas where the water is fluoridated, the population definitely have significantly better teeth (i.e. fewer cavities). Whether fluoride adversely effects other parts of the body - clearly this is subject to dispute. I am glad my kids have had fluoridated water all their lives - their teeth are excellent and they have hardly any fillings in their 40s.

Naturally, good dental hygiene can only help to achieve good outcomes.
Kay Kelly - 9, December, 2011 (6:19)

Robyn

Yes, I did say it wasn't much of a scheme, but it is a scheme that does help a certain percentage of the population. And it is better than nothing! It certainly caused a great deal of dismay up here in Qld when the current government started reneging on claims. The dentists themselves ended up having to provide those treatments for free. I believe it was pensioners - old age and disability - that were affected.

My dentist would agree with your hygienist. Most of my root therapies/crowns were caused by poor dental treatment when I was younger. Drilling too close to the nerve - the nerve eventually dies - an abscess on the root - incredible pain = root therapy and possibly a crown. I believe the skill of the dentist is very important. The dentist we have had for the past 20 years charges like the Light Brigade, but his work is very good.
Robyn - 9, December, 2011 (6:06)

Have no idea how my name ended up like that!
RobyndrillsR - 9, December, 2011 (6:03)

WEG,

The reason I wanted you to answer my question is because if you were a dentist you could contribute valuable information on this strand. For example, is it a fact that many of us had our teeth so weakened by the old drills used in the 1960's and 70's that the only way to save them now is to get many crowns. If this is the case it presents quite a dilemma for those who can't afford this expensive treatment or high private health fund costs. The only alternative is to lose your teeth. I had no right though to demand you reveal your previous profession so I do apologise if I came across sounding demanding.
Dr Diana J Hodgson - 9, December, 2011 (5:54)

There is a very simple answer to most, but not all, conditions of ill-health. It is called SELF-CARE. Unfortunately, we would rather opt for treatment rather than prevention. "If it's going to be, it's up to me".
Louis - 8, December, 2011 (23:31)

Gosh what a lot of twaddle. Bad teeth & obesity are mainly caused by bad habits generated by bad parenting. If you suffer from it, pay for the corrective costs necessary instead of poisoning the whole population with flouride & bumping up health fund fees.
Val - 8, December, 2011 (22:09)

With all due respect,ramp up dental care and the only people that will get GREAT benefits are the dental health specialists ,same as the present medical that is provided for next to nothing for pensioners it it greatly over abused and so is the amount of "free" medication prescribed/supplied to older people.....my pensioner mother in law has a cupboard full of medication supplied from weekly visits,most of which she agrees do very little or nothing at all.
Everyone needs to pay or it just becomes a legal scam for the practioners and suppliers.
Sue Do-Nim - 8, December, 2011 (22:03)

WEG:
It’s Sue here… Where ARE you??

You haven’t posted here for over 2 hours.

That nice Robyn is getting very cross with you. Why won’t you answer her questions?

Admit it Weggie.. You’ve been out on the town..Probably with that blonde air-head hygienist that you hired the other day.

Don’t you ignore us any longer.. You get back here right now and answer our questions.
Robyn - 8, December, 2011 (21:24)

To have dental costs well covered by health funds one needs to pay $300+ per month per couple. This comes to $36,000 over 10 years, $72,000 over 20 years and $108,000 over 30 years. And that's without increases. How many people can afford this really? Certainly pensioners can't. Many people don't have enough super to last more than 10 or 20 years of their overall living costs. I know people now at my age, around 60, who are getting false teeth to escape from dental costs.
Robyn - 8, December, 2011 (20:59)

I was told by both my hygienist and dentist that people in our age group will pay a fortune for our teeth because when we were young, drills were so archaic and large that they destroyed our teeth. They drilled out so much and left only a fragile shell of enamel. This shell can put up with only so many further fillings before the need for crowns to save the tooth. My hygienist said that her parents got out of their health fund to save the money instead for their future dental needs. Unless you are paying a large amount of money into a health fund they do not cover very much of what your dental costs may come to.
Lorikeet - 8, December, 2011 (20:50)

A lot of today's parents don't brush their kids' teeth, expecting 2 year olds to do it themselves. They also let their kids eat whatever they like.

Dentists say very small tots have teeth that are completely rotten, sometimes from drinking sugary drinks from bottles which they take to bed.

To my knowledge, there are 5 criteria which contribute to dental health:

1. genetic inheritance
2. good standards of oral hygiene
3. good diet
4. regular dental checkups and cleaning
5. fluoride

Fluoride is now considered a toxin, found in the brains of dementia sufferers.
Lorikeet - 8, December, 2011 (20:49)

Conservative governments seem to have done more for dental health, certainly here in Qld. Labor winds everything back to justify allowing corporate takeovers.

To my knowledge, the only parties currently having a strong interest in a Medicare Rebate for Dentistry are the DLP and the Greens. I saw a Greens Senator discussing it on "7.30" on ABC1 tonight.

I am opposed to wholesale medication of the population via the water supply, and don't support fluoridation. Imagine the effects on road workers who consume copious amounts of water each day.

I gave my children fluoride when they were small and they grew up with perfect teeth, because they were encouraged to look after them.
Robyn - 8, December, 2011 (20:28)

Kay,

That scheme doesn't help your average Joe Blow like me who simply has a complicated filling to be done by a specialist after already paying the dentist $400+ to be told he can't do it, and then ending up paying $4,000 for one tooth. The scheme you speak of helps few people, just as all of John Howard's schemes did. John Howard was a master at pretending he was giving something when there were so many catches concerned that in fact he was giving nothing or very little. This dental scheme you speak of is a prime example.

Yes we do need a national dental health scheme along the lines of Medicare. We need equal care for everyone. Dental health, more than any other form of health care divides the rich and the poor in this country.
Kay Kelly - 8, December, 2011 (20:03)

Robyn

I found the scheme I was referring to at the following website:

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/content/dental+care+services

It is for people with chronic conditions and/or complex care needs. A referral from a GP is required. I did see something on TV about the government failing to honour some care given to patients in some small Qld town.
Kay Kelly - 8, December, 2011 (19:53)

Robyn

That's why my 'Dentacare' scheme only gives free services for check-ups, fillings and extractions! The country would go broke covering everything else! Some form of subsidisation plus personal contribution would be needed to cover the more expensive procedures.

My mouth is probably the most valuable part of me!! Many root therapies and crowns!! I would be a rich woman if I hadn't contributed so much towards my dentist's well-being!
Robyn - 8, December, 2011 (19:48)

Forgive my repetition in previous comment.

Kay,
What is this scheme that the Howard govt introduced? I know nothing about it I pay a fortune for my teeth. So does my husband.
Robyn - 8, December, 2011 (19:42)

I have one tooth in my mouth worth a lot. The dentist filled it at a cost. He then decided it needed to be refilled with root canal therapy, at a cost. He then couldn't do it and sent me to a specialist to get it done for $1,800. I was then told I have to get it crowned. Total cost for one tooth = approx $4,000 for one tooth!

Dental costs are outrageous!!!
Kay Kelly - 8, December, 2011 (19:41)

Actually, Robyn, the limited dental assistance that we have today (that I tried to describe in my first blog) was introduced by the Howard government. Not much of a scheme, I know, but it is something. It is the current government that has stopped payments to many country dentists here in Queensland. It is planning to do away with the scheme altogether. I have no idea if this government has any plans for a new scheme.
Bob B - 8, December, 2011 (19:41)

As long as its Bob Brown and not Bob B I don't care but Bob B and Julia just won't happen - she hasn't got what it takes!!!
Robyn - 8, December, 2011 (19:32)

You rarely answer questions WEG. Why not? Were you a dentist?

Your play act between Julia Gillard and Bob Brown is interesting.....
In my view, conservative governments have never done anything to help us with our dental health. I have all my own teeth but they cost me the earth. They always have!
Bob B - 8, December, 2011 (19:29)

Fingers don't hit the right keys. Well done WEG the fang farrier.
Bob B - 8, December, 2011 (19:27)

Weg

Oh dear111
Kay Kelly - 8, December, 2011 (19:25)

WEG

Not only a Romeo, but a comedian, too! You are indeed an interesting blogger!
WEG - 8, December, 2011 (19:06)

Julie Gillard got into bed with PM Bob Brown (& his witches of eastwick) post the 2010 election. One of the pledges prior consummation was a National Dental Health System.

Julie to Bob: “Got to find the money first Bob”.
Bob excitedly says; “Why not tax the daylights out of the Aust. tax payers and introduce a tax on electricity. You can get Greg Combet to do the con job. Get rid of Penny Wrong ‘cause she just repeats and repeats the same scripted lines”.

Julie to Bob: “let’s do it. Now all we need to do is to tell the Health Minister, Nicola Roxon, to implement and hope it will be the first successful implementation unlike the
15 – 20 failed projects to date”.

Bob to Julie: “I do that in the morning”
Kay Kelly - 8, December, 2011 (19:05)

Unfortunately, here in Queensland, fluoridation of drinking water was not common. It was only introduced in Brisbane a few years ago.

This lack of fluoridation has resulted in poor dentition for a large number of Queensland children. Thus the problem of bad teeth is probably worse up here. Even small children have several tooth cavities. Not a good start.

I still think a good place to start with 'Dentacare' is free check-ups, fillings and extractions. There are many arrangements that could be considered for more expensive work, from partial subsidisation (like Medicare claims), to private health care (as at present).
Robyn - 8, December, 2011 (18:33)

Gee, were you a dentist WEG?
Looking forward to your contributions on this strand if you were.
Bob B - 8, December, 2011 (18:24)

Who would have thought, true love on the NSA blog.
Sue Do-Nim - 8, December, 2011 (18:16)

WEG:
Yes!..of course darling.

I knew,just by your style of writing, that you were truly special.

Is it possible that fate could bring us together?

.....One can only hope.
WEG - 8, December, 2011 (17:59)

......Do you think we could have been compatible?
Sue Do-Nim - 8, December, 2011 (17:43)

I wish I could have married a Dentist.
Lorikeet - 8, December, 2011 (17:33)

The Moderator needs to remove Helen's second comment due to name calling.
Lorikeet - 8, December, 2011 (17:28)

Bob B:

With increasing levels of indirect taxation in place and soaring utility prices, do you really think we are paying less tax?

Indirect taxation affects everyone, whether they are earning an income, receiving a Centrelink payment or are normally required to pay tax to the ATO.

Admittedly, most of these people don't pay the Medicare Levy, but can most younger families afford to pay more?
Lorikeet - 8, December, 2011 (17:24)

Everyone should take care to floss between their teeth each day to avoid dental disease. Necrosis of the jaw bone (death of bone tissue) can lead to teeth becoming loose and falling out.

I have no private health insurance and therefore cannot afford to neglect my dental health. I am careful not to eat really hard crackers and biscuits, even more so since I broke a piece off a porcelain crown on a molar when eating a cheap generic brand of biscuit.

Breads with seeds in them are probably best avoided by people with lots of dental fillings.

The Democratic Labor Party supports a Medicare Rebate on Dentistry.
Lorikeet - 8, December, 2011 (17:17)

The National Party also ran much better hospitals, and used proceeds from the Golden Casket to fund the Royal Children's Hospital that is now being downgraded to a comparative "bandaids and crutches" operation. Some years ago, the Labor government decided to take the Golden Casket funding away.

My husband installed and serviced dental equipment in schools and hospitals all over the state, from the time the program was implemented through the Department of Health.
Lorikeet - 8, December, 2011 (17:14)

It would make sense to move the treatment of older Australians into the private sector at a subsidised cost, but I don't want the government to corporatise dentistry. I feel certain this is in the pipeline and will deliver an inferior service.

There are now 2 medical super clinics here in Brisbane, neither of which has a single doctor working in it (replaced by nurses).

It seems to me that unqualified people are moving into jobs normally requiring a higher education, including in aged care. This is concerning.

From around 1980, both of my older children had access to public dentistry at primary school twice a year, where both restorative and preventative dentistry were practised. This was under a National Party government. Eventually this was extended to all students until the end of Year 10.

Over the years, the service has been eroded to the point where getting checkups is infrequent and no preventative dentistry is practised.
Bob B - 8, December, 2011 (17:13)

Had a friend who waited years with very bad teeth and other consequential problems. Once the public system picked him up it changed his life competely from a man who did volunteer work only half as much as he wanted to almost full time and he was bristling and smiling a lot. Why should he have to wait?

I would support a Dental care system equivalent to Medicare. Double the Medicare rate and go for it. We are afterall paying much less tax today than just 10 years ago so whilst its an initial impost, I believe its responsible to do so. It will not just improve dental health and reduce associated community costs but overall health and costs as well.
Bob B - 8, December, 2011 (17:07)

We have private health insurance that covers dental. I have all my own teeth still and my wife most of hers. We have a review each year with little actual work needed. I have had periodontal disease and have regular cleaning to keep this in check. health fund pays about half the overall dental bill.

Dental health is very important for overall health. Let your teeth go and so many other ailemnts crop up.
Lorikeet - 8, December, 2011 (17:04)

When I went to the dentist last week here in Brisbane, I noticed that the receptionist asked a mother if her 2 teenage children had been given vouchers for Dentistry. She said she knew nothing about it, so it's hard to know if there are eligibility criteria without further research.

I think it is possible that the state government has decided to do a little more for children's teeth.

I know it is almost impossible for pensioners to get into public dental programs, with most people waiting for years. During this time, their problems become worse, requiring even more expensive treatment.

The federal government is getting younger people with mental health issues off the Disability Support Pension by providing them with various forms of assistance, including:

1. Dietician for the obese.
2. Psychologist support.
3. Exercise physiologist.
4. Medical visits.
5. Private dental work (recipient has to contribute to cost).
Helen - 8, December, 2011 (16:23)

(2) Perhaps the more expensive items can be partially subsidised for those who can't afford a priv fund. It IS expensive for us, but well worth the money as we are covered for so much. Med Priv has a bonus system. If it is not used in any yr, it rolls over & acrues. Not everyone knows about it & they can have 100s there.

We didn't know for a long time & one yr it bought new glasses for us both!
Til tomorrow, cheers...
Helen - 8, December, 2011 (16:21)

Bad teeth can cause so many diseases (& death). This is important enough in my opinion to warrant making it available to everyone. Prevention is better than all that can follow.

If a doctor refers,, then the dentist can't really rort the system. Most dentists are pretty honest. Contd
Kay Kelly - 8, December, 2011 (15:38)

(cont.)

We have private health insurance. I must say, however, even with private insurance, the gap we have to pay is quite noticeable, to say the least. Dental care is very expensive these days, and I can imagine people skimping on this to their detriment.

If a Medicare-like (Dentacare?) scheme was to be established it would probably double the required Medicare contribution rate - a big ask and a brave one by any government.

And yet bad teeth can have a very bad effect on overall health. Perhaps we need a limited Dentacare scheme - which does not cover more expensive procedures - only check-ups, extractions and fillings. Things like crowns, root fillings, implants. orthodontics etc still need to be covered by a private health fund or the individual.

Regular check-ups may avoid a lot of the more expensive work. It also allows the dentist to check on things like cancer of the mouth/tongue.
Kay Kelly - 8, December, 2011 (15:25)

I gather the government is looking at dumping the free dental care brought in by the Howard government that extended Medicare coverage to include dental care when a doctor certified that dental care needed as part of an overall long-term health plan. I think that included dental care where an illness or prescribed drugs caused damage to teeth, or where bad teeth caused further complications to an existing long-term illness (or something like that, anyway). I believe the government has accused dentists of rorting the system and it considers this extension of Medicare is too expensive. On that basis, I believe it unlikely that this government would extend Medicare-type coverage to include dental care.
Helen - 8, December, 2011 (14:46)

(2) The super fund mentioned on the last blog is a new one put out by AMP. The rates are a little higher. Ours is still in cash at the moment which is 3.95%. 75% of our money is in a term dep for 6mths at 4.85%. Better than we had prev.

When things are better we will go back to the market place once more. Our adv said not yet. We are still making money this way - must go. I have everyone coming home & am getting ready for the onslaught.

I see "pain brain" completely trashed the last blog. Let's not talk to her & she might go away & come back as an alter ego. Perhaps one of Santa's reindeers...
Helen - 8, December, 2011 (14:44)

Sorry everyone. A bit busy today, just popped in & the other blog was closed.

I have all my own teeth (hubby too). We make a point of keeping them in order, Our health fund pays for everything because our dentist bulk bills & the bosus system picks up anything extra.

Haven't had a filling in yrs!. Bad teeth can kill. I believe teeth should be part of a retirement pension package & for the disadvantaged. Able to be accessed at the local dentist & not on a waiting list at the dental hosp Contd -

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The cost of bad teeth

The cost of bad teeth

Comments (276)

Bob B - 15, December, 2011 (14:27)

Kay Kelly - 15, December, 2011 (14:24)

Kay Kelly - 15, December, 2011 (14:03)

Kay Kelly - 15, December, 2011 (13:26)

Kay Kelly - 15, December, 2011 (12:47)

Robyn - 15, December, 2011 (11:54)

Kay Kelly - 15, December, 2011 (11:43)

Kay Kelly - 15, December, 2011 (11:25)

Helen - 15, December, 2011 (10:55)

Sue Do-Nim - 15, December, 2011 (8:55)

Robyn - 15, December, 2011 (8:52)

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Robyn - 15, December, 2011 (8:33)

Bob B - 15, December, 2011 (8:13)

Kay Kelly - 15, December, 2011 (8:03)

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Lorikeet - 14, December, 2011 (19:38)

Kay Kelly - 14, December, 2011 (18:05)

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Kay Kelly - 14, December, 2011 (16:13)

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Helen - 14, December, 2011 (13:40)

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WEG - 14, December, 2011 (11:40)

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Kay Kelly - 14, December, 2011 (11:16)

WEG - 14, December, 2011 (11:08)

Kay Kelly - 14, December, 2011 (11:04)

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Helen - 14, December, 2011 (9:35)

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Helen - 14, December, 2011 (9:27)

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WEG - 14, December, 2011 (8:50)

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Helen - 14, December, 2011 (7:34)

Helen - 14, December, 2011 (7:19)

Robyn - 14, December, 2011 (6:03)

Sue Do-Nim - 13, December, 2011 (21:50)

Kay Kelly - 13, December, 2011 (20:48)

rmcn - 13, December, 2011 (20:47)

rmcn - 13, December, 2011 (20:42)

Lorikeet - 13, December, 2011 (20:27)

Robyn - 13, December, 2011 (20:27)

Robyn - 13, December, 2011 (20:15)

Robyn - 13, December, 2011 (20:09)

Helen - 13, December, 2011 (14:36)

Helen - 13, December, 2011 (14:35)

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Lorikeet - 13, December, 2011 (13:27)

Helen - 13, December, 2011 (13:15)