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01 Dec

Pollies' bonus

01, Dec, 2011 (3:12 PM)

Pollies' bonus has Aussies seething
Australia’s politicians have been given a pay rise, just in time for Christmas.

The independent remuneration tribunal has conducted a review and is set to give Prime Minister Julia Gillard an extra $80,000, bringing her salary to more than $450,000, (a larger earning than US president Barack Obama ($US400,000) and British prime minister David Cameron).

Just days after Wayne Swan announced cuts to the baby bonus, public service and education, the pollie pay rise has some Australians seething.

While MPs will lose some entitlements and the gold pass scheme will be phased out, many are saying that, in tight times, there is no excuse for such a huge rise.

What do you think about the latest politicians’ pay rise?

Disclaimer: The views expressed in these blogs are not necessarily those of National Seniors Australia. This blog is moderated and any content deemed inappropriate by the administrator will be removed, including comments that are offensive or discriminatory; libellous or defamatory; breach copyright, unless we have the owner’s permission to use it; or contain personal or commercially confidential material. Personal attacks will be deleted by the moderator. The use of this blog to broadcast overtly party-political messages is also prohibited. The moderator’s decision is final and no correspondence will be entered into. Any personal details shared here are public and can be found on internet searches.

This blog is now closed.

Comments (439)

Lorikeet - 8, December, 2011 (14:06)

$50 says ETS and Robyn are not the same person at all, and neither are Sue-Do-Nim and WEG.

Bob B:

I agree with Bob B. that various viewpoints on everything should be worthwhile, taking into account the direction in which social engineers are trying to push us for their own benefit.

Since I am a Box Brain, my abilities cut across the typical strengths of both women and men, but I think I am best at examining patterns and predicting likelihoods and goals on an extrapolative basis. This is a bit like building a web of interconnected criteria/policies/events, radiating into the core of, or solution to, an issue.

I thought one of your terms differentiated an extrapolative thinker from someone with lesser "crystalised" ability.
Bob B - 8, December, 2011 (14:00)

Come on guys, whats with all this duality guessing.

Our Art Comp presentation went very well at the primary school this morning. It was followed by a photo shoot in the park under the Rotunda out of all this rain to support an article in our local rag about our Christmas festivities in the park. A very busy but most rewarding morning.

I really enjoy announcing the winners, one from each of junior and senior school, at the six local primary schools. We a little premi this morning and that was lovely. The senior this morning was also the overall winner and we had her mum there and mum was more tickled pink than the daughter.
Son of Lorikeet - 8, December, 2011 (13:46)

Not only that Robyn, but I think you and ETS are the same person and you have these different identities to double-team my mum, who is just herself.

Care to come clean?
Robyn - 8, December, 2011 (11:22)

Son of Lorikeet,

Why do you think WEG and Sue Do-Nim are one and the same? What are your reasons?
Robyn - 8, December, 2011 (10:54)

No Helen this morning? I hope we have not lost another blogger. Helen, if you are out there watching, are you willing to join with the experiment?
Kay Kelly - 8, December, 2011 (10:49)

For all you Bartlett's Blog watchers - it seems to have petered out due to lack of interest and no new blog topics!

Just shows how vibrant our blog is!
ETS - 8, December, 2011 (8:50)

Laurakeet and Dieter, I’ll respond to you rather than anyone else. You both raise good points and Dieter, you said you were not taking sides. That is wise and anybody taking your comments to justify their own behaviour would be wrong to do so.

Laurakeet, your comments are also spot on. I don’t expect you will get an answer because you can’t list what does not exist.

There were some interesting topics on Life Matters on Radio National this morning. One concerned issues for UK pensioners in Australia, with a sideline about the loss of employment opportunities for seniors. Another dealt with subliminal advertising messages. Both worth listening to if they have not come on in your part of the country yet.
Kay Kelly - 8, December, 2011 (8:46)

Yes, Robyn, she is already practising her insults! Very hard to take without response!

And I note the provocation to you in her Obama reference - just after you said you would find denigration of homosexuals very difficult to ignore. If anyone needed proof that she deliberately provokes so she can then hypocritically claim 'victim' status, then that Obama reference is it!

And I repeat - Lorikeet is the biggest bully in this schoolyard.

Bob B.

I too love an experiment! It will be interesting to see if Lorikeet ups the ante on her bile if she doesn't get the attention she craves.
Bob B - 8, December, 2011 (8:27)

Lorikeet

I fully expected an answer along the lines of a bit of both for that is what I see as normal. We each have a mix of artistic, problem solving, logical thinking with knowledge, particularly retained knowledge, skills and experience etc to different degrees. No one mix is right or wrong but rather right for that individual. And so happily we all (should) get along building on the plusses and ingnoring the minusses.

Now I'm following the Kay idea for the next subject for a week. I'ts disappointing in one repect as we seem to have overlooked past issues and are freely 'talking' now. But, experimentation appeals to my logical thinking side to build my knowledge base thereby using one intelligence type to enhance the other!

Off now for our last schools assembly presentation and a piture shoot for the local paper for our Christmas carols do Saturday week.

So Lorikeet see you in a week.
Lorikeet - 8, December, 2011 (8:25)

Kay:

If that's what you truly think, I believe you need to see a geriatrician without further delay, along with a number of other people.

By now Dieter B has had a reasonable snapshot of the NSA blog and the terrible people who are destroying it.

Thankfully the local NSA branch doesn't appear to contain many people who are anywhere near as objectionable as some of those posting comments here.

On a democratic blog, I should be able to post information regarding the Greens' guru, Peter Singer (with due warnings as to content), without the tirade of unwarranted abuse, or deletion of essential reading material.
Robyn - 8, December, 2011 (8:23)

Continued

7) Crazy assertions, which I fear, if not challenged, give our blog a bad look.
8) Utter disrespect for other people's political views.

Yes, all of this is provocative and is hard to ignore!!! But I will try.
Robyn - 8, December, 2011 (8:20)

Dieter 7 Dec (20:15): "I know some comments are provocative."

Yes they are.
1) Constant attack, especially of ETS and I. Even gentle Laurakeet got put on the list of "those no-one else would want to interact with."
2) Constant belittlement of our intelligence, values, comments.
3) Response to comments with prejudice and nasty insinuation. For example, Lorikeet's 4th sentence at 7 Dec (20:55) is a homophobic comment in response to my comment at 7 Dec (18:08).
4) Lies eg 7 Dec (20:42) " If the moderator had banned ETS and Robyn when they first started calling me a tarantula......" She called herself a tarantula!
5) Constant victimhood which needs the notion of persecution in order to have any substance. WEG supports her in this.
6) Constant use of grandiosity in order to compete with others, in effort to maintain supremacy of the blog.
Laurakeet - 8, December, 2011 (8:14)

Please excuse the poor grammar in the last sentence.

I meant to say that Robyn and ETS could set a good example and not respond to Lorikeet's goading.
Laurakeet - 8, December, 2011 (8:13)

Good morning everyone. Kay, that is a great idea and I will join in when the new topic starts.

If I read the messages correctly, Lorikeet called herself a tarantula. Others did not start it. Am I right about that?

I'm also glad Lorikeet has many certificates and diplomas. If Lorikeet wanted to list a few examples I for one would believe her. Why would she lie about something like that?

Lorikeet's attacks on Robyn and ETS sound very personal and that should be avoided. Maybe they can set a good example and don't respond to her.
WEG - 8, December, 2011 (7:05)

Sue do Nim
Sue,

Reading of you escapades during the 60’s – must have been fun. Lucky for us you’ve well past that filly stage or else I’d have to shut my eyes as you run by.
Kay Kelly - 8, December, 2011 (6:29)

Well, I am going to give it a go for next week's topic.

I can see Lorikeet is already getting primed for her assault on us! Plus she just can't quit with her favourite (for the moment) topic!

Dieter B.

Thanks for your encouragement. However, many of her blogs are so outrageous that there are no 'issues' that can be discussed. I refer to the blogs that were deleted on the strand, plus her latest efforts. I for one get very tired of her insults, especially when I make great efforts to play her usual extreme assertions with a straight bat, and try to explain some issues to her (it appears she doesn't really understand a lot of things). If you read way back through this blog you will see I definitely didn't deserve the spray I copped from her at 15:55. Lorikeet is the biggest bully in this playground!!!
Sue Do-Nim - 7, December, 2011 (22:13)

WEG:
WEG, please clarify.

Do you want to ban all the pseudonyms or just some Sue Do-Nims??

Kay K:

What a great idea …

WEG:
Sorry to hear you weren’t a sixties’ hippy.

You do sound very lovely though.

I was a sweet innocent slip of a thing in the 60’s,keen to embrace new ideas. I guess you’d call me a hippy. Involved in all manner of fun stuff…peace rallies, free love ,bra burning(very uncomfortable) and once I actually had one of those funny cigarettes.
Of course I didn’t inhale..but no-one was to know.

My friends and I even used to drive down to Byron Bay in a floral Kombi and swim..dare I say it..in the nude.
Yes, that most certainly raised a few eye brows.

Sometimes it’s nice to reminisce.
Lorikeet - 7, December, 2011 (20:55)

Dieter B:

Yes, that makes sense, but some of these people are Greens and only pick on me because I am a member of the DLP.

They should remember that I'm not one of the elected politicians that they despise. They should save their bile and venom up for them.

No matter how nice other people try to be, the same group of nasty people turn this blog into a circus with their schoolyard bullying.

----------

I think Barack Obama has a hide in thinking he can manipulate other world leaders using "values" that were rejected by the masses hundreds of years ago for excellent reasons.

I think he should be banned from using Darwin as a lookout point to carefully supervise everyone who might not agree with his ideas.

I guess time will tell if he also intends to ram unpalatable "Darwinian" animal values down our throats in every way except the gastronomic.
Lorikeet - 7, December, 2011 (20:42)

WEG:

I don't think some of these people are playing with a full deck of cards. Maybe a couple got lost in the shuffle.

Apart from that, several people are only on this blog to make a mockery of it.

If the Moderator had banned ETS and Robyn when they first started calling me a tarantula, they would not have amassed a following of other cruel people.

But as some will remember, each morning the Moderator threw open Hell's Green Gateway and let a whole group of disrespectful people scuttle about unchecked, like a nestful of cockroaches.

ETS's latest reply indicates that his level of respect is nil.

I couldn't even tell him how many certificates and diplomas I have, because there are so many. Even if I provided a comprehensive list, he would then say I couldn't prove it.

ETS has the primary goal of becoming the world's greatest trouble maker.
Lorikeet - 7, December, 2011 (20:24)

Bob B:

Yes, you are wise to be concerned about the Chinese.

I have always thought that Global Warming was a con designed to rob all Australians blind, and my opinion has not changed.

When Mensa tests people, they get a score which is age-corrected. The older you are, the better the score you need, because they divide it by your age! They don't use the terminology you mentioned.

If you know the interpretations used, it might be helpful.
Dieter B - 7, December, 2011 (20:15)

It would be good if people did not respond to some comments. I'm not taking sides or saying who is right or wrong and I know some comments are provocative. But if some people can get past the personal comments and stick to issues then other people might do the same.

I don't have my head in the clouds about this but I agree with those who say it is worth trying.
Robyn - 7, December, 2011 (19:38)

I'll go along with your idea Kay but as ETS said, it hasn't worked before. It simply means getting abused or insulted with no comeback. If the topic is on gay rights I will renig on my intention.
WEG - 7, December, 2011 (19:36)

....I appreciate everyone's input. No I'm not a hippie.
Robyn - 7, December, 2011 (19:31)

Son of Lorikeet,

Your mother did indeed call herself a tarantula, on the Carbon Pricing Scheme strand many moons ago. I was a witness. She said she has big feelers "to feel everyone else out".

We are all still dancing the tarantella with her!

WEG, you sound like a 60's hippy. Where is the love indeed? Do you love we who are on Lorikeet's low life list?
ETS - 7, December, 2011 (19:30)

Good idea Kay. Bob did it before and we’ve talked about it but eventually it all falls apart. When we stayed off the blog for a week Lorikeet refused because she does not believe in “exclusion”. That was fair enough in general but to voluntarily take a break can hardly be called exclusion. Anyway, it did not change things, just gave her nonsense a free run.

It is worth the effort. If her response is like last time you can expect a barrage of provocation in the first few days which I thought said more about her than her targets. She won’t be alone of course. I can think of a couple of names who will continue to agree with her. But I’m willing to give it a shot. We could even start tomorrow on Crazy Thursday.

SoL, she called herself a tarantula thinking she was highlighting someone else’s ignorance, but it backfired badly… good for a laugh though.
WEG - 7, December, 2011 (19:27)

Kay - exactly what this blog needs - contribution without ridicule. It would make for a better blog. Also, what about banning the pseudonyms. Probably too much to ask though. There's one in every crowd.
Kay Kelly - 7, December, 2011 (19:13)

Sue Do-Nim

Aha! The term explained! I'm sure you're right. I had completely forgotten about Peter Singer, but clearly Lorikeet hadn't!

Fellow Regulars

I know some time ago you all stayed off the blog for a week - Lorikeet didn't, of course. Well, how about we agree to completely ignore Lorikeet on the next topic? Pretend her comments don't exist - no matter how provocative she is. Then she couldn't possibly accuse us of abusing her. I think it would be an interesting experiment. What do you guys think? A waste of effort?
Son of Lorikeet - 7, December, 2011 (19:08)

I don't get the tarantula comment. It doesn't make sense unless she was making a point about the jealous Jezebels and misogynistic men who continually bully and abuse her. She is only human after all.

My mum would never call herself a tarantula. That is just silly.

WEG and "Sue" Do-Nim posting messages within four minutes of each other. Interesting.
Son of Lorikeet - 7, December, 2011 (18:51)

Good question WEG. Where indeed is the love? I’m not feeling the love tonight. Only my mother loves me.

I’ve been watching the blog for a few days to see how people treat my mother. No love at all. Here we are on the precipice of a world wide disaster of global proportions. Economies are going down the drain. There is a secret neo-communist conspiracy to send Australia into the third world by taking our superannuation and other savings and giving, yes giving them to the Chinese, who are in cahoots with the Americans to destroy life as we know it.

Kevin Rudd is behind it all. Don’t believe Gillard is running the country. It’s a front so Rudd can spend more time overseas getting instructions from his Chinese masters. Taliban Tony Abbott is getting his orders from overseas too. As the Chinese start to kill off their old people the Age Pyramid will become obvious… but too late.
Sue Do-Nim - 7, December, 2011 (18:43)

Lori:
“Sicko Singer” must be a reference to Peter Singer whose writings you quoted in earlier postings regarding ,shall we say, a rather offensive topic.

Our learned Moderator rightfully expunged all your ramblings. Now you are slyly trying to resurrect this topic.

Move on..
WEG - 7, December, 2011 (18:39)

You’ve made your point. Nevertheless it’s very poor taste. Humanity at it’s worst. Where is the love?
ETS - 7, December, 2011 (18:27)

WEG, if you read my full reference you would read further down to Lorikeet's message and see that she called herself that name.

It's a bit like the time she called herself a tarantula.

So thanks for the gatekeeping but nobody is being bullied. All quiet here folks, nothing to see, go on about your business etc.
Kay Kelly - 7, December, 2011 (18:22)

WEG

"Sicko Singer" is what Lorikeet called herself! (her blog 15:55 7/12) I have no idea where she got that term. I for one have never heard of it, and I have no idea what she was on about! The "poor taste" must be hers.

So now we get accused of bullying her when she said it herself!!! Please read the blog before starting with the accusations.
WEG - 7, December, 2011 (18:10)

Sicko Singer? Now that's really poor taste and unwarranted in my view. No one deserves being bullied like this.
Robyn - 7, December, 2011 (18:08)

Just heard some great news. Barack Obama has declared that all future American aid will be dependent on countries introducing equality for homosexuals. Apparently Hiliary Clinton also gave a speech equating discrimination against gays with sexism and racism.
ETS - 7, December, 2011 (18:02)

Lorikeet, or should we now call you Sicko Singer after your message of 15:55. I take it from your message of 16:08 that you have no academic qualifications at all. No tertiary qualifications, no TAFE certificate, no degree, no diploma nor any other recognised criterion of expertise.

Please note there is nothing wrong with not having one or more of the above; nothing wrong at all. Wisdom and knowledge are not the same thing and many very intelligent people do not have formal qualifications.

The reason I made a point of asking about your qualifications is that you continually claim genius status and now hero status and for the life of me I cannot see why (seriously). You also claim to have worked in academia of some description and expertise in counselling people out of cults. Yet your messages show no sign of any counselling ability at all and no basis for the claims you make to expertise.
Nottakeet - 7, December, 2011 (17:23)

Lorikeet

Thank you for your kind words, but I am afraid I don’t quite see how I have managed “to prove that we’re being sent down a hellhole by the banks where superannuation is concerned”. Please explain.

Kay

Mea culpa. I should have mentioned that the interest payments made by banks are, quite naturally subject to income tax – that terrible Federal Government greed again – while, as you correctly point out, an allocated pension is tax free to those of pensionable age. Like you, I thought the bank rates were reasonable in the current fiscal fiasco we find ourselves in.

‘Tongue in cheek’ comments in a sophisticated blog like this! Perish the thought.
Bob B - 7, December, 2011 (17:03)

Kay, it's still over the ton. I've got a fleece top on and have just put my slippers after taking the bin out for collection. Brrrrrr.................
Kay Kelly - 7, December, 2011 (17:02)

Bob B.

Correction - coldest December day in 123 years!
Kay Kelly - 7, December, 2011 (16:54)

Nottakeet

Did I get your comment all wrong? I thought the 4.8% interest on cash over 5 years in superannuation was pretty good! Especially if it is an allocated pension and hence not taxed! The other bank rates sound good too, but if outside of superannuation, they will be taxed, although the tax could be minimal.

Also, I thought your reference to the organ trade was very 'tongue in cheek'!
Kay Kelly - 7, December, 2011 (16:45)

Bob B.

I think I just heard on the news - Brisbane's coldest December day for 127 years!

As you say, so much for global warming!
Kay Kelly - 7, December, 2011 (16:43)

Lorikeet

Yes, yes, of course I am terrible! I've managed to see through your tactics!!!

Exactly where have I "bullied" or "belittled" you: where have I "got down in the gutter"?; where are these "personal attacks"? No, of course you can't answer that! - you never answer questions - you just hurl unsupported abuse!

But, hey, you are the focus of the blog again! And there you go again with the animal stuff!!

And for heavens sake! Do you really equate yourself with Einstein, Bell, Marconi and Newton? Get real!
Bob B - 7, December, 2011 (16:35)

Good heavens, here we are well into December on the Gold Coast and its just 17.8 outside. I can remember in Canberra one year, amay long years ago, on the 7th Dec we had snow on the lawn and gardens. So much or global warming!
Bob B - 7, December, 2011 (16:23)

Lorikeet

The question:
Do you have fluid intelligence or cristallized intelligence?

There are two types of intelligence. I simply inquire as to which you belong. Please overlook the quick finger on 'i' instead of 'y'.
Bob B - 7, December, 2011 (16:17)

Lorikeet

Thank you for your kind words re Chinese steel.

I missed the Press Club today as we were called in help a friend running into the deadline stuffing envelopes.

I have a real concern that we are selling agricultural land and mines to the Chinese. There may well come a time when they say bugger off Australia we own these an its produce/minerals etc are going to China and if you starve in the process to bad.
Lorikeet - 7, December, 2011 (16:15)

Bob B:

I looked at your question again (3/12 10:04).

Can you rephrase it, as I believe it could be interpreted in a number of ways?
Lorikeet - 7, December, 2011 (16:11)

Nottakeet:

You made some excellent observations about those low rates provided by Helen.

Thank you for helping to prove that we're being sent down a hellhole by the banks where superannuation is concerned (and everything else for that matter).

Thanks also for mentioning the corrupt trade in donor organs, mostly taken from the destitute in third world nations.

I'm sure everyone will have seen details of the organ trade and baby chimpanzee trade on "Sixty Minutes", and relevant exploitation and cruelty.

I enjoyed today's NPC address by Michael Devereaux, in which he expressed concern about Australia becoming only a food bowl and quarry for other nations.

He talked about car manufacturing, and the fact our government discriminates again its own nation in Free Trade Agreements.

Lots of rich angry men scowled throughout the delivery.
Lorikeet - 7, December, 2011 (16:08)

Bob B:

I certainly had no problem with what you said on the steel issue and valued your input.

ETS:

Now let me say this to you, and then see how you like it. Maybe then you will know the effects of your constant putdowns and jibes.

"Your expertise came as a freebie in a cornflakes packet. Unless you are willing to post all of your certificates, degrees, diplomas etc here for everyone to see, your input and expertise will be considered nothing more than a waste of space."
Bob B - 7, December, 2011 (16:02)

Lorikeet

Good, your back. Do I get an answer to my question @ 9:59? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Also, if you please an answer to my 3/12 10:04.
Lorikeet - 7, December, 2011 (15:55)

Kay:

The person who said you now belonged at the top of the list of bullies was correct. When we first met you on this blog, you were fairly polite, but you quickly got down into the gutter, following the bad example of others.

This is no doubt why you seem to readily accept ideas such as polygamy.

When someone is ahead of the main game, they don't need to see a psychiatrist. I know that Einstein, Bell, Marconi, Newton et al all had problems with those who had been left behind.

A long list of people need to grow up and learn to appreciate the input of others without the constant negativity and belittlement.

Believe whatever you want, but don't treat the messenger as if she is Sicko Singer. Ignore the evidence if you so choose, but cease the personal attacks. I don't animalise humans, or humanise animals.
ETS - 7, December, 2011 (15:39)

Good grief WEG, repeating a claim does not make it true. It isn’t bullying to ask someone to provide evidence to back up their assertions, especially when the assertions imply some sort of special knowledge or expertise. A simple request for evidence of qualifications or expertise can result in an eruption of abuse. Frankly there are times I would like to ignore the ravings, as Bob does sometimes, but she regards silence as vindication of her ratbaggery and as Kay says, she ups the ante to something more extreme.

I still haven’t seen any sign that she actually has qualifications… and doing an IQ quiz from Women’s Day does not justify claims of genius.

I suppose she will call this another example of bullying… hope not.
Nottakeet - 7, December, 2011 (13:44)

Helen

I am delighted to learn from your blog of 10:34 on 6/12/2011 that your financial adviser predicts the market won’t do much for a while and that nothing too terrible is likely to happen. I sincerely hope he/she is right.

I am puzzled by the interest rates you quote. Are these after tax rates or is there something else I don’t appreciate. My reason for asking is that the banks that frighten Lorikeet so much will pay around 4.5% on savings accounts (not guaranteed) and over 5.0% on term deposits (guaranteed). My fee-free, bank savings account currently pays 4.5% on deposits over $1. My wife’s industry funded superannuation pension account, which may well fund cluster bomb production and the black market in old peoples’ organs, has averaged 4.8% in the cash option over the last 5 years. So the rates you mention don’t sound that wonderful.

What am I missing?
Kay Kelly - 7, December, 2011 (12:41)

(cont.)

If other bloggers challenge her assertions, she calls them "bullies". If she is ignored, she ups the ante (refer the blogs of hers that were deleted) until once again the blog is about HER. In fact, the blog always has to be about her!

Of course, if L. were not to introduce her crazy assertions and/or not get miffed when other bloggers disagree with her, there would be no problem!! Too easy! But then again, how could she be the centre of attention if she didn't initiate all this?
Kay Kelly - 7, December, 2011 (12:40)

Yes, John, it is always the same pattern! A sensible discussion is going on between bloggers. There may be some disagreement on the issue being discussed, but the discussion moves forward and views are shared.

Then a certain blogger, always the same one (shall we call her L.), comes onto the blog, occasionally with some relevant and useful information. But eventually L. will go off on some crazy tangent. The ideas expressed are challenged by other bloggers. Then L. goes for 'victim' status, and the usual words are bandied about - 'schoolyard bullies', 'immature bloggers', 'a bunch of idiots' etc - you know the tune!
John O'Grady - 7, December, 2011 (11:51)

Gee ... I have just come into the blog ... what a bitch fight! It appears to have been generated and maintained by one person who has created an unsafe forum for truly free discussion. This really is a bit crook as there are some truly wise people in the crowd who may not want to have their comments denigrated (along with themselves) to troglodyte level! It only takes one distorted attitude to sour the whole event.
Kay Kelly - 7, December, 2011 (11:31)

Well, WEG, for starters, we have no idea who the other bloggers are or where they live - let alone phone numbers! But no doubt you jest!
WEG - 7, December, 2011 (11:26)

..............gee, this blog has degenerated into a bear pit with a sole aim of bullying individuals.
As some wise blogger said earlier, ‘Why not talk on the phone to each other? Then the rest of us would be spared the trivia.’
Kay Kelly - 7, December, 2011 (10:21)

Yes, Robyn, I agree that there are no doubt many people on this blog who have very high IQs - at least as high as Lorikeet's claimed IQ. And we can see that from the quality of their comments. But as you know, one's IQ is of little real consequence per se. It is how you use it that matters!
Robyn - 7, December, 2011 (10:21)

Correction: I meant "People with exceptional minds...."
Robyn - 7, December, 2011 (10:15)

Kay,

I understood where you were coming from when you mentioned your IQ. It did not seem like a boast. I was glad you did speak up because it was a realistic way of challenging what is a perpetual (and unbelievable, according to the evidence) boast on Lorikeet's part. I have no doubt that many on this blog have very high IQ's as evidenced by their input. Exceptional minds tend to display equally high degrees of empathy and sensitivity in my view.
Bob B - 7, December, 2011 (9:59)

Lorikeet

Are you saying my responses to you on the issue of poor quality steel from China are bullying? I need to be clear on this.
Kay Kelly - 7, December, 2011 (9:30)

ETS

I apologise for mentioning my completely irrelevant IQ!! I guess I just got so frustrated at Lorikeet's claim that her IQ was "in the genius range", thus devaluing anything the rest of us said! As I'm sure you will agree, a person's IQ is completely irrelevant - it is what they achieve in life in all sorts of ways that really matters.

It is clear to me that there are many highly intelligent, wise and very experienced people contributing to this blog. And without any need to publish their IQs!
ETS - 7, December, 2011 (9:11)

So Lorikeet, just to be clear. Do you actually have any formal qualifications in anything at all? Doesn't seem like it.
Kay Kelly - 7, December, 2011 (9:05)

Lorikeet

Most of us are capable of judging the abilities and intelligence of others by what we see of their behaviour. With this Blog, we use the comments posted by others as our reference point in assessing their abilities/intelligence.

You don't appear content to allow that assessment to be made by other bloggers. Hence your need to try to convince us that your assertions must be correct because of your stated top 2% intelligence and your life experiences.

When we prefer to concentrate on the issues you raise and logically discuss them. you feel slighted. This is unfortunate.

We just happen to disagree with you on many issues. I might add, we disagree with each other as well. But I think we all learn and maybe modify our views through these exchanges of comments. That makes life more enjoyable and we value this blog because of this.
Kay Kelly - 7, December, 2011 (8:50)

Lorikeet

Once again you have indicated that you have no respect for the principle of 'freedom of expression'. You clearly have called many times for anyone who challenges your ideas to be banned from the NSA blog. To me this indicates someone not at all confident of arguing his/her point of view.

Instead of presenting any logical, well reasoned argument to support your assertions, you just start throwing insulting words around, and asking for these more sensible bloggers to be banned or have their comments removed. Pretty pathetic, in my view.
Lorikeet - 7, December, 2011 (8:44)

When intelligent people are treated like morons, they have little alternative but to declare their abilities. But on the NSA blog, a list of jealous people prefer to jump to negative conclusions about other people's qualifications and abilities, because they are never happy unless they are bullying someone.

Intelligent people accept one another's abilities with good grace. They aren't on a constant mission to hurt others.

Instead of kicking the cat, beating up the dog and being nasty to as many people as possible, go out and do some charity work.
Kay Kelly - 7, December, 2011 (8:39)

Lorikeet

Once again with this "bullying" rubbish!!!

I for one have just expressed concern for your welfare!

Bob B. has purely pointed out that there are a whole host of issues that can affect the the building of desal plants and tin cans. An engineer or someone with extensive procurement experience (as I think Bob has) would have a much better idea of the incredibly wide range of possibilities that should be considered in attempting to isolate an engineering problem. Inferior Chinese steel is a possibility if the contractor did not adhere to the specs. But only one of many possibilities. I believe Bob is just trying to make that point.

So once again, you appear unable to separate a debate about an issue from personal attacks. You certainly are not displaying any of that intelligence that you claim to have.
ETS - 7, December, 2011 (8:33)

So Lorikeet, are you ever going to tell what qualifies you to be an exit counsellor? Well meaning amateurs can do more harm than good and might even be counter-productive.
ETS - 7, December, 2011 (8:31)

Fair comment Helen. Old farts was a generic term and not meant to describe any individuals. There are some very wise contributors to this blog (your “maturing intellectuals” if you like) and I do not include me in that description. We can definitely have our blog heroes too. It is just that hero status is normally not self-proclaimed. People who do something brave and save other lives do not generally walk around saying “look at me, I’m a hero”. In my experience they generally shy away from such a description. People who boast of their “hero status” or their genius or their other nebulous claims to fame usually end up being described with a word that rhymes with banker.
Lorikeet - 7, December, 2011 (7:56)

The Moderator needs to block all of the bullies from this blog. If she had done this when ETS and Robyn first started creating constant problems, the number of bullies would not have increased exponentially.

I think it is really sad when some of the most immature people I have ever encountered belong to a seniors organisation. These people have been carrying on like a bunch of idiots for months.
Lorikeet - 7, December, 2011 (7:49)

I have saved many people from the 18-25 age group from the clutches of destructive cults. I have even had death threats.

Brisbane's leading exit counsellor died at age 62 from many distressing illnesses that were brought on by dealing with aberrant cults. She was also exposed to various risks, including death threats and people cutting her brake lines.

You people are certainly not enjoying life. People who gang up to mock and deride one person need counselling for Bullying.
Bob B - 7, December, 2011 (7:49)

Poor quality tin cans. I have not noticed any problem of the nature reported herein. It might be poor quality steel or it might be a defect with the canning process like inappropriate (corrosive) washing technique. Again, we need more information to be able to claim sub standard chinese steel.

One needs to think through the whole process involved before making such a claim nominating one potential cause as the nature of the defect. Its all too easy until you actually have to do the analysis to isolate the cause of the problem. Were the evidence before us currently produced in court to slam poor chinese steel, it would be a very short and costly court case.
Bob B - 7, December, 2011 (7:40)

cont...

For large projects it is not unusual to have customer oversight to ensure everything is going as planned and its being progressively paid. This introduces another prospective cause for the defective material.

As the contractor remedied the defect, it would seem the cause lies with him though. Did he procure the right material or was something wrong with the material suppled. Did he do sufficent checks to ensure an expensive item met specs? Can't answer these. I won't go on but from this hopefully you can see there are a number of potential causes than the quality of piping supplied - ie sub quality chinese steel as you claim.
Bob B - 7, December, 2011 (7:35)

Lorikeet

It seems you source of information re the desal plant is as mine - the media. You claimed inferior chinese steel to be cause of the defective piping. I contend this is but one of a number of possibilites.

When something is designed, the material selected is a critical element and is inherent to that design. These materials are stated in the specifications normally provided to the manufacurer. He sources those items comercially and it appears in this case the problems liesa with buying the wrong material or a problem with the material supplied.

Cont
Kay Kelly - 7, December, 2011 (6:58)

Lorikeet

I had no idea you were so young - although your having a teenage son should have been a clue, I guess. You sound more like a crotchety old woman!

As I said before, I am truly concerned that you have probably another 30 years at least ahead of you in such a pessimistic, fearful mindset. In a range of things that can happen in this world, it is unlikely that EVERYTHING that happens will be at that extremely bad end of possibilities. And, in any case, a lot of these extremely bad things that you worry about would have minimal to no impact on you whatsoever!

So relax and enjoy life, and let the rest of us oldies enjoy life too without being bombarded with these horrific warnings from you. Just chill out! Life here in Australia is pretty good, even when the ALP/Greens or Coalition are in power!
Helen - 7, December, 2011 (6:47)

Good morning all! You've all have had an "interesting night" Don't you ever sleep?

ETS the comment re the blog for old "Farts", hmm. I don't consider myself that. I think it's more of a blog for "maturing Intellectuals". Where else would you see comments such as here?

What about the banks? Do the bloggers think that they will pass the full cut to mortguagees. Do you think they deserve it more than us? I'm really int in your comments on this one!

I am out for most of today so will check in when I come home.

Sue- DN. I would be proud to have you on our prestigious list (as long as you don't take my place). If I reach the top of L's list, you may have my position lovely person that you are...x
Sue Do-Nim - 6, December, 2011 (22:47)

Robyn:

Yes, being a shy retiring type of lass, fame does sit a tad uncomfortably with me.

This Blog topic certainly has had a lot of postings..363 so far .

If you added on Lorikeet’s 1,278 deletions..surely it’s a record.
Robyn - 6, December, 2011 (21:56)

Susie sweetheart,

You are just trying to get off the lowest life form list, aren't you? Admit it now, you can't handle the fame!
Sue Do-Nim - 6, December, 2011 (21:43)

Lori:
Please ignore that nasty ETS and naughty Robyn…. They just doesn’t understand.

You’ve certainly led a full and fruitful..sorry, worthwhile life so far. Judging by that little snapshot of your achievements.

I too believe that fruit tins containing congealed and widespread micro-ooze and black goop with microporous problems and seepage ARE important .

Are you going to lead a group to… “Occupy Golden Circle”..if so I will join you.

Well done for making us and our political leaders aware of your concerns and keep fighting the good fight.

You remain… as always… my hero.
Robyn - 6, December, 2011 (21:34)

Come now ETS. We also have our blog heroes - those who save the world with their blogs. Don't knock it. Lorikeet can't help it if no-one wants to listen to her attempts to save us from all the nasties out there in the world that want to eat us up! When we are all about to be euthanased for the big (aged) organ grab we may be sorry we didn't take notice. Problem is, I still don't know what to do because she hasn't yet told us how we are supposed to save ourselves.
ETS - 6, December, 2011 (21:15)

I've met real heroes Lorikeet. People who have rescued others from fires, surf life savers who have literally brought drowning people back to life, police who have saved lives. These people have put their own lives on the line to save others. They are the heroes.

Believe me Lorikeet, based on your messages on a trivial blog for old farts, you are definitely no hero.
Lorikeet - 6, December, 2011 (20:31)

I guess some people must enjoy demonstrating their stupidity on blogs. All it does is elevate the person being mocked to genuine hero status in the eyes of many (quiet) others. That's those who get on with their own research of various issues and exercise their own thinking skills, without saying anything.
Lorikeet - 6, December, 2011 (20:25)

According to very recent polling, Gillard has risen a little in popularity, Rudd and Abbott are both unpopular, with a large amount of support for Turnbull (dumb public).

I think Bill Shorten could get up fairly soon. Certainly something else is simmering.

Bob B:

The desal plant had inferior fixtures that rusted easily and were costly to replace. I heard the Qld government made the contractor pay for and undertake repairs.

I have made a couple of politicians aware of the problem with fruit cans. Maybe I should have kept them. They were covered with black goop. I put them on the sink for a time to uncover specific leakage points, but there didn't appear to be any. I think the steel had some kind of microporous problem throughout, resulting in a widespread micro-ooze which congealed and blocked further seepage.

I am 56 now. That was a tiny snapshot of the many activities I have been engaged in.
Helen - 6, December, 2011 (18:44)

Poor old Rudd thwarted again, sob, sob, boo, hoo! Abbott should hold his peace though because he's in v rocky territory himself at the moment. My bet is that Abbott will be gone before next Xmas & Julia will still be PM (with a higher score) after May. I have a hunch that old Kev might be gone too now that there's an extra vote.
Catch you all tomorrow - Cheers...
Robyn - 6, December, 2011 (16:54)

ETS,

As far as I'm concerned, if this secret organ grabbing society gets me, they can have a kidney. I just don't want them to chop my feet off! I wonder if they are the same ones who stole the shoes to get the feet? It's a scary world for us oldies!
ETS - 6, December, 2011 (16:43)

I might go further up the list with this comment but Lorikeet seems to have kind of Sweeney Todd view of the world. It is not enough that she says the Chinese will be massively killing off their old folk, but now she is scared to walk down the street with a donor card in case she is grabbed and robbed of a kidney for the Premier or some other dignitary. I feel for her. Surely these worthy people can make their own arrangements for body parts without grabbing little old ladies on the street in broad daylight. I suppose if they went to the trouble of grabbing her they would not be too concerned whether or not she has a donor card… unless there is a massively secret donor data base “out there” and all donors are being secretly monitored by satellite. Don’t laugh, it’s how they got bin Laden, they could do the same to donors.
Robyn - 6, December, 2011 (15:12)

I don't know Bob. I don't seem to have to do too much to always win. And look at David Goss - he didn't have to do anything to get on the list, albeit close to the bottom again. As I have said before, there seems to be no rhyme or reason as to why I inspire the greatest antipathy. I think it's a "girl" thing.
Bob B - 6, December, 2011 (15:07)

If we can get all the Men's Sheds in the country into production of Abbott proof fences, maybe that might protect the population from negativity!!
Bob B - 6, December, 2011 (15:03)

Robyn

Does that put me on even pegging with you for the next iteration of low lifes?

This could become an event of Olympic proportions with all this competition.
Bob B - 6, December, 2011 (15:00)

Helen

Your words are interesting and have a common thread with some of my ealier words probably before your entry.

Back then I said she reminds me of someone who crashes into the first floor when trying to leap tall buildings. Note the first floor is better than the ground floor and in a skyscraper is in the 2% band..

You can add 57 now maybe 58 divorced has worked in a doctors surgery and in a hospital. Makes loads of knitwear for overseas relief packages .... there is more. She has been quite revealing over the past year or two.
Robyn - 6, December, 2011 (15:00)

PS. By 'this blog' I mean the NS blog in general, not this particular strand.
Robyn - 6, December, 2011 (14:54)

Ha ha! That's good John - The "Abbott Proof Fence". We all need one of them!

You might also be interested to know that Lorikeet has a few personalities on this blog and one of them is named "John". The others are Geoff and Claude.
Bob B - 6, December, 2011 (14:53)

Lorikeet

There are a number of reason for the Desal Plant pipes to have corroded premeturely. Off spec material and inappropriate specification are but two. Are you aware of the outcome of the investigation that was no doubt conducted? To be so sure of the cause leads one to believe you have some substantive basis to make the claim you have! I am interested in this matter but have not seen anything published.

Also, leaking tin cans is a serious matter that has a cause as all engineering 'defects' have and I am interested to find out more about this. If there is something definitive its a matter for government to consider - they set and control such standards and if there are defects that needs to be addressed.
John O'Grady - 6, December, 2011 (14:48)

Robyn, thanks for the information re the Lorikeet background. Perhaps her mother was overwhelmed by something nasty while she was in the womb?
Re the stockproofing of Canberra; I have been told that Julia has instructed Tim to have his mens shed team build a prefabricated fence and have it erected around the lodge, ensuring that is 'Abbott proof'!
Helen - 6, December, 2011 (14:41)

"LMckeet" The perfect woman. Multi faceted, beautiful with a figure to die for and a brian with duel occupancy & a fervent imagination.

Able to leap tall buildings with a single bound -
Look up into the sky-

Is a plane NO! Cld it be a Pagan/green flying pollie NO! IIIIT's LMcKEET!!! (time for a cuppa) I should get to the top of the list now with that eh...
Lorikeet - 6, December, 2011 (14:41)

I think it's a shame that Helen (along with others) enjoys unsuccessfully trying to upset other people. That really is a shameful and immature waste of one's time.
Lorikeet - 6, December, 2011 (14:39)

Everyone should be well aware that Heather and I are not one and the same, but I can understand why the constant attacks annoy her.
Lorikeet - 6, December, 2011 (14:37)

The organs of elderly people are not generally wanted for transplantation, due to minimal life span e.g. weakening of heart valves.

A friend who is around 80 wanted to give her own daughter one of her kidneys. She got knocked back for being too old. (Perhaps researchers would gladly take them.)

Before Kevin07 was elected, he promised to set up a Donor Organ Register, on which everyone's name would appear, unless participation was rejected individually in writing. For 4+ years, the above friend has been sadly disappointed.

Since my youth, I have had reservations about carrying a donor card in my purse, in case the Premier or some other dignitary suddenly required a donor organ. I thought doctors would pull one out of any unsuspecting person going under the knife for a minor procedure.
Helen - 6, December, 2011 (14:31)

In the discussion the Doctor said that at the moment family can vetoe any decision re organ donation on our part & 50% of family do just that!

It can take yrs to find a suitable donor & if this is happening I wonder how many people die because of it.

Maybe there is a used by date on organs. Nothing was mentioned just lack of donors. They are also working out ways to get organs across the C/try better. At the moment this is a problem as well as it all has to happen V quickly to be successful...

ps Heather is "L" I'm convinced of that now. Your secret is out L...
Lorikeet - 6, December, 2011 (14:27)

People with a narrow focus want to limit discussion very narrowly. This is what leaders of government also prefer, so no one discusses anything for understanding on an interactive basis.

As usual, the same detractors only want to pick a collective fight as is the preferred option of schoolyard bullies.

The steel imported from China is mostly defective. This is why food cans become porous and slowly leak juice, leaving black goop.

A friend's husband is one of the engineers who build the desalination plant on the Gold Coast. The steel fixtures quickly rusted out and soon needed substantial expensive repair work.

I shudder to think what could happen with bridges and tunnels built from steel imported from Asia.
Robyn - 6, December, 2011 (14:23)

Heather C-D,

I can understand how it must be frustrating to have diversions put in the way when you are really interested in a particular topic. However, no-one is actually stopping anyone from continuing to comment on the topic. Most comments seem to come in on the first couple of days. You might like to consider introducing further discussion on the topic and asking for responses.

It appears we all have different views on blogging. Perhaps we could have a blog strand on what we each view blogging to be.
Helen - 6, December, 2011 (14:19)

92)If another person had not donated, he would not be alive now as his veins were collapsing. It meant a death for a life. One sadness saved another's life. That's what I want if parts of me are worth saving. I would not like my family to go against this wish. I'm not planning on leaving just yet, so I can upset L for a bit longer yet.

The list goes on & on for L "A Councellor" crikey! I think I need councelling after that statement! (Do you think that might put me in a higher position on the list bloggers?)...
Helen - 6, December, 2011 (14:18)

Hey John thank you! I'm quite chuffed to make THE list (1st would have been nicer though)..

I was listening to an ABC discussion this morn with a Spec from the Dr Chang org re organ transplants & donors. This is why I commented as I have made it quite clear what I want. I guess I don't look on it as morbid just "There but for the grace of God go I" as they say.

We have a rel in Germany who was on dialysis for twenty yrs, every 2nd day he went to the hosp for 4 hrs, had a sleep & then went back to running a car spraying business. Another inspiration! He now has a kidney which hopefully will last his life out (although it's only guaranteed for ten yrs). contd-
Robyn - 6, December, 2011 (14:07)

Hi John O'Grady,

Lorikeet has told us she is female and mother of 3 genius sons. One of her sons is involved in very mysterious work saving us all from the Russians and the Chinese. She might like to fill you in on any other (numerous) details that we all know. The story about the fence in Canberra is worth asking about :)

Helen,
We have had family discussions on organ donation and what each person wants. I feel sure we will all respect the wishes of each other. Simple really!
ETS - 6, December, 2011 (14:02)

Hi John, the list is gender-neutral as far as I know. Keep up the good work and you will make it - it just takes a bit of perseverence.

On organ donation, I've left instructions in my will and told my next-of-kin and friends that I want it to happen. They can use whatever is usable. I've also filled out the relevant Organ Donor form. All I can do now is hope when the time comes some parts of me will be useful.

It is going to be interesting finding out how long body parts last, eg eyes. Say I die in my 90s and my eyes are given to a teenager who lives for another 80 years (not impossible). My eyes will have been around for 170 years. I wonder how they will work by then. Not morbid I hope, but interesting.
Heather C-D - 6, December, 2011 (13:59)

This blog is a perfect example of why I don't "visit" NS too often...from one simple question the blog gets diverted from MPs payrises - to ugly stuff that gets (rightly) deleted to stockmarket and now organ donations-the latter two IMO deserve separate blogs as again IMO, they are important issues to seniors.

Why doesn't NS just have one "free of all open" blog so that those who want to rant can do it elsewhere and keep the blogs with the current / important issues "clean" from these diversions created by mischief makers?
John O'Grady - 6, December, 2011 (13:42)

Helen, congratulations on your high placement in that weird persons' list. I almost put 'womans' list' but am unsure of the gender. Does anyone know?
Re our children going against our expressed wish to bequeth our organs; I don't see that there is a lot can be done. I have talked with my four kids, particularly asked them to make sure that it does happen and have every assurance.I think that is about the limit of ones' powers from the grave! Two of my progeny have my enduring power of attorney which may help them to sway the other two, if necessary.I really don't know if that is relevant.Bloody morbid stuff!
ETS - 6, December, 2011 (12:08)

Lorikeet (8:11) – “At the same time, they (China) have had access to our mineral wealth at low prices, while also selling us back large volumes of value added products that mostly aren't worth a cracker.”

Not low prices for coal and iron ore, L. The Chinese are paying record or near record prices for resources. That is what the mining super profits tax is all about. Much of the increased Chinese production is for domestic consumption. Not “worth a cracker” is a generalisation that is really not warranted and unsubstantiated. It very much depends on the product.

Lorikeet (9:07) – “BTW I have counselled people out of destructive cults and known people who escaped from satanic cults where various pagan practices abounded.”

What is your qualification as a counsellor? I’ve asked before but you have never answered. Well meaning amateurs can often do more harm than good. Many cults are derivations of Christianity and just as destructive.
Robyn - 6, December, 2011 (11:10)

The emergence of better standards of living in countries like China and India is a good thing. I hope our world does evolve to a place where third world standards become a thing of the past. I am also enjoying lower prices for most goods, clothing and some food items in our own country. Also the price of telecommunication these days is so much cheaper than in the past. Remember the days when you had to watch the clock when making an std call? International calls were out of the question for most. In the 1970's my husband and I and most of our friends couldn't even afford to have a telephone. In many ways life has become easier for most.
Helen - 6, December, 2011 (10:52)

Correction - Last Line should have been (do) not does (v bad grammar) opps...
Helen - 6, December, 2011 (10:48)

(2) I feel quite happy with the last year. Out Fiancial Adv is a good man. He drove two hrs through city traffic to see us here in the C/try!

Nothing changes with L. You sound like those who preach re child porn etc & check out web sites just to "have a look" (a bit of a worry!)

I'm all for choosing when I want to die too. It should be MY right. Organ donation as well. If there is anything left that is useable, I would hate my family to go against my wishes re donating. This is what is happening to 50% of those who want to donate on their death. What does fellow bloggers think of this?...
Robyn - 6, December, 2011 (10:47)

Kay,

Why do you bother to reason with our chatty cult buster. It is pointless poisonous poppycock.

Regarding your comment at (8:41): "The fact is, most developments/changes have pros and cons. There are good and bad aspects of most things. It is all a matter of balance."

Very true words and all we can do really is go with the flow.

Wherever this world is heading economically, I take heart that I can survive one way or another. I have lived on the smell of an oily rag before and know it can be done happily. Many in our age group own our homes which will be a blessing if things get really dire.
Helen - 6, December, 2011 (10:34)

Good morning (albeit a little late). We had our financial Adv here this morn. He doesn't predict anything too terrible at all.
He says the market won't do too much for a while & is keeping our money in cash but moving it to a new AMP A/C that gives us more int. 75% will go in fixed dep for the next six months & the rest into the new fund. Getting us more int than just cash which is only a bit more than 3%. The other A/C will get us around 4 1/2. After six months if everything is the same he will transfer the earnings into our AMP pension topping it up.

We haven't lost anything at all which has been great. Better than before when we did lose quite a bit when the market fell the first time - contd
Lorikeet - 6, December, 2011 (9:07)

Kay:

I have taken into account what has been happening in the world over a number of decades, including the international documents that have been signed, and the results thereof.

Yes, what I foresee is catastrophic, but if people continue to vote for Labor/Greens and Liberals, eventually the Greens will take over and then what I have mentioned here will move forward at an even more rapid pace.

Once again I urge you to do the study. Google and read. Consult the parliamentary records. But I don't think you have 8 years left to do it. When I try to give you and others the bare bones of what I have learnt (including projections regarding issues of sexuality), all I get is abuse.

BTW I have counselled people out of destructive cults and known people who escaped from satanic cults where various pagan practices abounded.
Kay Kelly - 6, December, 2011 (8:41)

Lorikeet

You are the most pessimistic person I have ever come across!!! How do you live with all this extreme gloom and doom? You deliberately look at the very worst interpretation and outcome of every single thing that happens in the world!

The fact is, most developments/changes have pros and cons. There are good and bad aspects of most things. It is all a matter of balance.

I think if I had such a gloomy outlook as you seem to have, then I too would have the same fascination with euthanasia that you seem to have!
Kay Kelly - 6, December, 2011 (8:31)

Lorikeet (cont.)

As for a social catastrophe - you could expect the same sorts of things to occur as occurred in the Great Depression. People out of work, losing their homes, etc etc. Possibly worse in other countries.

But I am always an optimist! I think times may get a bit rough, but we will come out of it. When? That is the big question.
Kay Kelly - 6, December, 2011 (8:29)

Lorikeet

Certainly there is a great deal of uncertainty at the moment in global financial markets. The USA is looking better than Europe. A complete collapse of the European economy would of course have detrimental repercussions right around the world. And a slowing of the Chinese economy would certainly have a direct effect on Australia. China too is tied up in all sorts of ways with the economies Europe and the USA.

But, you can rely on your old enemies, the global bankers and financial experts, to do everything they can to save themselves, and the rest of the world by extension, from financial catastrophe.
Lorikeet - 6, December, 2011 (8:11)

This is not a huge stretch considering the concomitant 30 years of a roaring trade in Prostitution, Abortion and Kidnapping of women from other nations to wed the surplus of males (due to gender selective abortion).

As we know, for the same 30 years, China has amassed an increasingly huge cache of manufacturing industries which used to provide work in the developed nations, and increasingly sold us fresh and preserved food products we neither want nor need.

At the same time, they have had access to our mineral wealth at low prices, while also selling us back large volumes of value added products that mostly aren't worth a cracker.
Lorikeet - 6, December, 2011 (8:04)

I've seen Chinese politicians in various media saying they're going broke, and Aussie political analysts saying China will only ever be broke.

Commentators have also recently alluded to the huge cost of China's ageing population sending their nation broke, after 30+ years of a One Child Policy. My guess is that Mass Euthanasia will be used to solve the problem in the huge number of instances where family based care is unavailable (due to most people working outside the home).

That way bankers can continue to ramp up and retain their substantial holdings. My belief is that Chinese bankers/government have deliberately perpetrated destruction of the Age Pyramid to maximise the financial advantages of having a huge glut of workers, with Mass Euthanasia an integral part of the plan.
Lorikeet - 6, December, 2011 (7:55)

There are plenty of interesting and intelligent comments on shares and superannuation. I don't use the past as a measure of the present or the future where bankers/finance are concerned, except in terms of their having always been out for themselves.

I continue to believe that moneys lent to the IMF for European bailouts will never be repaid, and that they are just a part of the worldwide redistribution of wealth that has been occurring for decades.

I believe a catastrophe is coming, but of a financial/social nature, not environmental.

I am strongly inclined to move my small investment out of Global Bonds (which no longer sounds like Fixed Interest to me) into Cash.
Kay Kelly - 6, December, 2011 (6:53)

Bob B.

I concur completely with your comments on investing in the stock market (21:03 5/12).

I have all my money in Balanced, except that I keep tabs on the unit price day by day. Every so often, when the unit price is at least as high as the price at which it entered the fund, I move about a year's worth of money across to Cash, and draw my allocated pension from cash. By that method, I can avoid cementing a loss, whilst not cutting myself off from market movements.

Unfortunately, if the market continues its downward trend, I may get caught out and have to dip into Balanced funds. But so far (fingers crossed!!), I've managed to avoid cementing in any losses. Interestingly, Ethical Investment choices perform very badly!

BTW Lorikeet - different Super Funds have different investment choices with different names. You have to look at the actual mix of investment types.

I
Bob B - 6, December, 2011 (5:08)

Sue Do-Nim

I am no expert on the stock market. That is managed for me by my portfolio manager.

Once you can determine perception and how it work then you might have some inkling of where and when it will move. The whole world seems to be very gittery at the moment about a number of things that don't, in normal times, have a big bearing on how people interact with the market.
Sue Do-Nim - 5, December, 2011 (22:16)

Bob B:
Obviously I don’t know how closely you follow the stock market but one area that has strangely underperformed recently are Asian shares.

Could the Asian share market be ready to bounce back and could these shares be under valued at the moment?

Any thoughts ?
Currawong - 5, December, 2011 (21:09)

ETS

On the issue of DLP vacancies, from her current missives isn't Lorikeet filling all 100 vacancies?
Bob B - 5, December, 2011 (21:03)

Lorikeet

History has shown the stock market to be the best investment over the longer term. Your are right in saying things have been bad in recent times. It will get better but picking that time is the problem.

Its folly to take money out when its low and put it in the bank because that is what feeds the market. If you can, the best option is to leave it ther to ride the waves because then its only loss on paer. Withdraw and you realise a real loss.

Thats the best for the long term historically. Where I have cash in my fund derived from normal trading movements, I invest that in a term deposit rather than reinvest in share and property funds.
Lorikeet - 5, December, 2011 (20:36)

Bob B:

Joking about voodoo dolls could prove to be a very dangerous thing to do.
Lorikeet - 5, December, 2011 (20:33)

I think people should keep their money in low risk options all of the time, regardless of their age. In the last 10 years, there has been no extra money to be made from higher risk options, especially after much larger chunks have been thieved.

Since Fixed Term investments in superannuation were renamed Global Bonds, I have to wonder if they might go the same way as my grandfather's Aussie Bonds during the Great Depression: completely gone, never to return.

Sometimes an investment in the Bedroom Bank managed by Mrs Mattress presents an interesting alternative.
ETS - 5, December, 2011 (20:13)

Welcome back Alan, good to have you here again after your break. Will you be ranting about having to pay taxes again? That was a real hoot. I also loved your complaint that you would not be able to play the pokies again... the good old days.

I'm looking forward to your next topic.
Alan - 5, December, 2011 (19:13)

Good onya Lorikeet

Keep the ol pack of staunch (overpaid) ALP Socialista honest and keep on trying to open-up their small commie minds ....
Robyn - 5, December, 2011 (18:35)

I am delighted to still have top spot! I really thought Kay might beat me this time around, especially since she has shown herself to be a REAL genius which must be quite threatening for a low 2 percenter. Thanks for your congrats ETS and I think your 4th spot was still a pretty good showing. Helen, if you really want to be the best (highest lowest) you might have to turn green. John O'Grady you sound intelligent and rational enough to make an appearance next time around so hang in there and good luck.

Finally, big thank you to you Lorikeet, for bestowing me with such magnificent honour yet again. I am rapt!
Kay Kelly - 5, December, 2011 (17:40)

Lorikeet

I thought maybe we had moved on to discussing more substantive issues. But your blog at 17:29 shows you are still smarting from the deletions. Ho hum!
Kay Kelly - 5, December, 2011 (17:35)

Lorikeet

By 'market based' I meant a lump sum that is invested in whatever investment mix one chooses. And yes, that amount can go up or down over time in line with the market movements of the chosen investment type.

Available investment types include cash; cash plus other things like bonds and property; balanced which includes cash, bonds, property and shares; or pure shares (this is a very simplified summary). The risk increases from cash to shares. But the potential for substantial increases lies with a share option. Those some time away from retirement would be more likely to choose shares. Those already retired might be more likely to choose cash.
Lorikeet - 5, December, 2011 (17:29)

I am clearly one of the few people left who are brave enough to take on the immature and/or blatantly aggressive and/or grossly insulting and/or uninformed and/or bad mannered people on this blog.

When they cannot compete, they form a pack to bully.
ETS - 5, December, 2011 (17:26)

Robyn, congratulations on topping the list again. I thought I might do better than fourth place after the deleted words I wrote to describe Lorikeet, but apparently I’m still not as memorable as Helen and Kay and congratulations to you as well for filling the minor placings. I’m surprised David Goss is still listed as we haven’t heard from David for weeks. I also thought Brian Storm would be there because he has never agreed with Lorikeet. But it’s not my list so I’ll accept the judge’s decision.

Kay, Lorikeet may well be the majority of people. At this stage she has also been John, Jeff and possibly other names. She is also one of 100 lorikeets wanted to fill DLP positions, a sure sign of her multiple personalities.
Lorikeet - 5, December, 2011 (17:22)

I'm sure Monitor knows we have all complained extensively about payouts to CEOs, and that Labor said they would do something about it. When push came to shove, only 1 Family First and 5 Greens Senators were interested.

If others deserve to have a pay cut, Monitor could provide a list to all Senators in his state and his federal MP. (Thanks.)

I said some Labor MPs "might" cross the floor. I noticed Monitor could not count to 4. If they didn't, it would have been mainly due to threats of losing pre-selection.

Yes, I was tested by Mensa in Queensland and scored in the top 2%, which includes only those with Intelligence Quotients in the genius range.

I cannot be held responsible for the destructive cultism (no choice) which happens in the parliament. Consult with the relevant party leaders on that.
Sue Do-Nim - 5, December, 2011 (17:16)

“She’s making a list…

Checking it twice….

Gonna find out who’s naughty and not very bloody nice”.

Good onya Lori…..and they said you didn’t have a sense of humour.
Lorikeet - 5, December, 2011 (17:13)

New rules applied to those who applied for DSP after May 2005.

Widow Allowance is now restricted to anyone born on or before 30 June 1955.

Sometimes the government applies new legislation retrospectively, but that is generally if they want to clobber someone, not do them any favours.

Kay's reference to a choice between Defined Benefit and the new "market based" is interesting. "Market based" is probably designed to give much better scope to rip people off or minimise their benefit.

Forming a nasty pack has causes that don't necessarily include intelligent.

John O'Grady:

You would have to try very hard to get a spot on the list. It would be easier to be nice.
Currawong - 5, December, 2011 (16:55)

Helen

I'm not surprised I'm last on this list as I haven't been active for a month or so. Out of sight out of mind sort of thing. That could change if the Currawong needs to swoop in for a tasty meal of green, red, yellow and blue covered flesh. Yum. Its a pretty green though don't you think?
Kay Kelly - 5, December, 2011 (16:51)

WEG

You are quite correct re DB pensions. I bad times, they provide an excellent safety net. We are lucky in that we have a modest, CPI-indexed DB pension which would allow us to survive (without holidays etc) if all else fails. But of course, as it comes from an unfunded source, it is taxed as if it were salary.

We also have our allocated pensions, but the way things are going.......

As you say, in times like this, a DB is a "golden egg"!
Helen - 5, December, 2011 (16:47)

Just came home, can't stay long.
I'm VERY DISAPPOINTED!! I was not FIRST of Ls list & Currawong, you must be devastated to be last!
I'm not too sure what I did to make the popularity list, but I think I have to try harder. I HAVE TO BE THE BEST!!

I look forward to checking in tomorrow, cheers...x
Monitor - 5, December, 2011 (16:47)

Lorikeet is still in full flight predicting the pension age will increase to 75, and older people will be forced to live off reverse mortgages, etc. [3 Dec 8.03]
Those making predictions need to have their predictions reviewed. In mid July on climate change Lorikeet advised us that 4 Labor MPs would cross the floor to vote against the anti pollution legislation. They were Bird, Sharon, Jones, Stephen, Fitzgibbon, Joel, Livermore, Kirsten and D'Ath, Yvette.
The record shows that they did not cross the floor and the legislation passed.
Lorikeet was wrong [again!]. Has she acknowledged it? She never does on the many occasions she is.
So bloggers may care to make a mental note about the reliability of her predictions. They could also note in relation to IQ claims that IQ in Lorikeet’s case stands for In Queensland.
Do those criticising politicians ever rail against the obscene pay of Business executives?
They could explain why not!
Bob B - 5, December, 2011 (16:47)

As the Toyota dog said bugger!!
Delete 'subjucate' insert 'subjugate'.
Bob B - 5, December, 2011 (16:44)

WEG

You are so right WEG. I have two from two periods of fed gov employment. Met Paul Clitheroe at a forum and he was of your opinion almost to the word.
Bob B - 5, December, 2011 (16:41)

Robyn, Helen, Kay, ETS .......

How is it that we mange to interact nicely during periods of 'no Mad Cow' disease? I suspect this is a plee for leniency to be included in future but only on her terms like subjucate ourselves.
WEG - 5, December, 2011 (16:40)

Kay – your comment on DB’s.

If you have a DB fund these days and assuming it has a reasonable balance, you should consider yourself very lucky. These DB fund are usually CPI linked and the purchase price for a pension worth up to twice what you could get in the market place for an annuity.

DB's are considered a ‘golden egg’ in uncertain times.
Kay Kelly - 5, December, 2011 (16:37)

Lorikeet

I wasn't aware you were "the majority of people" all by yourself!

I'm honoured to be included in a list of intelligent and reasonable bloggers! Meaning, of course, those who challenge you, and to whom you have no sensible response.
Bob B - 5, December, 2011 (16:30)

Kay

I think your right on the Gold Card and I like the option of choice for existing members. Time will tell what happens but I think it smells even at this early stage.
Currawong - 5, December, 2011 (16:27)

Yep, I'm still here. Been having a ball just following the line of 'discussion' over the last few weeks. Got to get in quick though before the deletions - could have done without those deleted this morning as they were quite obtuse (is that how its said politely?)

Mad Cow doesn't present evidence but rather rams obtuce thinking and references down your throat and expects to be idolised. I wonder if it's catching? I hope not, one is more than enough.
Kay Kelly - 5, December, 2011 (16:21)

Bob B.

I understand these new salaries are not yet finalised, but one of my concerns is that the pay rise is supposed to be based on some allowances and perks (eg Gold Card) that are being subsumed by these new higher salaries, but that rationale will only apply to new members. I have the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that for existing members of Parliament, they will receive the higher salaries, but still keep all the old entitlements. That is a bit much!

It would seem to me that the RT could give existing members the option of new salary OR old salary (indexed to CPI) plus old allowances/perks. All new members would receive the new salary minus Gold Card etc. (no choice).

It is a bit like the changes to public sector superannuation from Defined Benefit to market-based - we had to choose. Both options had their pros and cons.
Bob B - 5, December, 2011 (16:19)

So the list of those who have the intellect to challenge Lorikeet grows. Fortitude is in it as well for those with multiple exposures.

It's nice to be in such esteemed company.

Lorikeet, I haven't felt any unusual pain lately so I suggest you sharpen up your act with the voodoo dolls.
John O'Grady - 5, December, 2011 (15:57)

LORIKEET.

May I also be included in your list?

Please?

I can be quite indecent, on occasion!
Lorikeet - 5, December, 2011 (15:19)

John O'Grady:

You called me a nasty name. I am not responsible for the terminology or ideology used by Peter Singer. There is little point engaging with people who overreact and don't give due consideration to the evidence presented. I think ETS has a hide telling anyone they need to fix their self-awareness.

I would argue that everyone needs to become more aware of what is supported by Greens. I cannot do all of the study for them.

As we know, the media are used to warm us up to backsliding ideas over a period of time before something is decriminalised, then has certain provisos attached through legislation, which are then completely ignored and the previously criminal practice is widely accepted. We have seen this happen with abortion.

Bob B is probably correct about the pollies pay rise, which sounds as if it is following the Disability Support Pension and Parenting Payment in a downward spiral by a covert/misrepresented method.
Lorikeet - 5, December, 2011 (15:16)

I think most decent people reading this blog know where the problems lie.

The majority of people would not bother to engage at all with the following list (which is still not comprehensive):

Robyn
Helen
Kay
ETS
Bob B
Sue-Do-Nim
Laurakeet
David Goss
Monitor
Currawong
Bob B - 5, December, 2011 (15:05)

My 3/12 9:50 privided a link to an article by Madona King very supportive of the pay rise. Letters to the Editor this morning in response were just as we have mostly outlined here, unsurprisingly.

I am still surprised that many seem to be unaware that the rise was partially based on the loss of some entitlements into the base salary. One such entitlement has sinse been put into the 'might' be changed basket - that of the travel Gold Card and it will apply to new MPs only. So those already there will probably have both. This aspect need so to be monitored.
John O'Grady - 5, December, 2011 (13:23)

I have just come into the blog and am surprised that Lorikeet has aroused so much angst. She must have been truly naughty. The IQ displayed in argument is usually not all that helpful where rational, commonsense discussion directed toward achieving deeper thinking and an outcome to benefit all is obviously needed.
John O'Grady - 5, December, 2011 (13:05)

I think that the underlying issue is probably the quality of pollies debate in the house, their effectiveness when contributing to matters of national issue, their 'bottom line' when affecting general thinking on controversial issues etc. etc. Their rate of pay would not have a whole lot to do with their skills and commonsense whilst in the dogfight.Better and tougher preselection processes might be more effective.
Alan - 5, December, 2011 (12:33)

If the pollies salary increases were paid in equal proportion to their outcomes/results (and savings to the community to whom they allegedly support) it would probably read something like:

ALP Pollies = -$30,000.00 (negative each)
Greens = -$50,000.00 (negative each)
Independants = -$70,000.00 (neg. each)
Liberals = +$70,000.00 each.
OM Saigal - 5, December, 2011 (11:23)

Not enough is spent on health & education to raise our world standards. Perhaps much can be learnt from other nations (Asian & the rest) success before politicians need a reward!!
ETS - 5, December, 2011 (11:12)

Lorikeet, your sensitivity to this indicate a complete lack of self awareness. Look at your own comments objectively and you will see why they were deleted.

Once again, there is no conspiracy against you, just sensible responses to your ideas. The only head in the sand is yours, unfortunately.

As I have written before, some of your ideas are worth discussing, but you think they are set in stone and any attempt at discussion ends up with you abusing other people who don't agree with you.

That is the basis of the problem.
Lorikeet - 5, December, 2011 (11:01)

Whenever the whistle blows, heads go straight back into the sand, and input which requires careful consideration is deleted.
Bob B - 5, December, 2011 (10:56)

I feel for the NSA Moderator. She must dread coming into work to se what stuff has been sprayed about. She must also welcome the meaningful contributions of most where views are stated and supported with diffeing views also well put and support by a reasonable person.

Keep up the good work NSA Moderator.
Bob B - 5, December, 2011 (10:52)

Lorikeet

By your own words you are in a minority of the population. It appears as though you are also a minority on the NSA Blog. As you keep telling us in the majority 'do the thinking yourselves'. Now there just might be some reason your blogs dissappeared - don't bleat about it just go and thinking yourself. If you get it right and adjust your life might be a little easier.

To claim the disappeared blogs were proof of the Greens agenda is just plain hogwash. If you want me to believe otherwise convince me like a true intellectual would not bash your views in like my MIL used to do and she had a below average IQ but still in the majority so there is some hope for you. Tolerance and forebearance was the order of the day when she was alive.
ETS - 5, December, 2011 (10:44)

Where are the swear words about you Lorikeet? I know of only one (from me) and it was a fairly mild but accurate description. I was not surprised to see it removed this time and I have no issues with it going.

The Moderator has a tough enough job as it is and she does not need abuse from you about what can and can't stay. Look again at what you wrote and maybe you will see that it was unacceptable.
Lorikeet - 5, December, 2011 (10:15)

This appears to be a very undemocratic blog.

Proof of the Greens' agenda has disappeared completely, while abusive comments including swear words that have been directed at me by others remain.
Robyn - 5, December, 2011 (10:11)

Well folks, I didn't need to register a formal complaint after all. Our moderator has made her own decision.

Thank you moderator for your very right action in this case. It feels good to have those vile posts gone.
Heather C-D - 5, December, 2011 (10:01)

Sandra Thorman - 5, December, 2011 (7:34)
Sandra I understand where you're coming from and I do agree that CEOs from the private sector usually have a much larger salary. But ... I'm not sure if potential politicians are attracted to run for parliament on the basis of salary alone. Many are selected by party members in electorates and others may be hand picked because they have a certain profile. For example, a couple of ex-Federal politicians come to mind such as Pat Farmer (former Member for Macarthur) and Maxine McKew (former Member for Benelong).
Kay Kelly - 5, December, 2011 (9:08)

Moderator

Thank you for removing all references to a certain unhealthy practice.
Kay Kelly - 5, December, 2011 (8:20)

Lorikeet

We don't "know" your IQ is "in the genius range"! We do know that on just about every blog topic you make some highly questionable (as evidenced by the quality of your blogs) and TOTALLY UNSUPPORTED CLAIMS that your IQ is in "the top 2%" which includes IQs below the "genius" range in any case!!

And we also "know" that "assaults upon" our intelligence occurs very frequently!

I hate this "mine is bigger than yours" crap but my IQ has been assessed in the top 1%. But who cares? My intelligence can best be judged by others by my successes at uni, work and life (and maybe, how I contribute to this blog). These are more informative of intelligence. I bet there are many others on this blog with similar IQs and achievements!! There certainly are many, many bloggers whose contributions on this blog are far more informative and insightful than yours. So what's so special about you?
Sandra Thorman - 5, December, 2011 (7:34)

I have no problem with pollie pay rises in principal. We will only attract our best people if we can compete financially with the private sector. But I do prefer the pollie pay rises to coincide with announcements that pensions are to be increased and not in the same breath as unpopular funding cuts. Comparing our PM salary with the US President is probably not quite fair considering the vastly different financial circumstances of the typical US President or US Presidential candidate.
Helen - 5, December, 2011 (7:05)

Good morning all! Oh dear, a long way from Pollie's PR.

My mother exhibited this kind of behaviour ie "Paranoia" where she read different meanings into everything she heard or looked at.

She could be forgiven though because she had "Vascular Dementia"??

A bit of a worry? I can't join in today for a time. I'm off to help my baby sister who phoned in ill...
Kay Kelly - 5, December, 2011 (6:51)

Lorikeet (cont.)

And yes, out there in the wide world, there are people with views that are definitely not in line with how most people think. It's called 'freedom of expression'. But as for any of these ideas becoming mainstream, well that's a whole different story.
Lorikeet - 5, December, 2011 (6:32)

ETS:

Do you actually think the Greens would put their true agenda onto a website for all to read? Come now!

I have independently carried out investigations of various issues over a period of 8 years. I certainly wouldn't describe the Greens as belonging to the Centre Left. Yours is certainly a minority view.

As you know, I am a charity worker who supports the poor and the average. I could hardly be described as a right wing fringe dweller.
ETS - 4, December, 2011 (22:55)

Lorikeet, you are opinionated but not well informed. You know little of actual Green policies but you repeat mindless assertions about pagans, bestiality and other nonsense. If you took the trouble to find out you would see that the Greens' policies are best described as centre left, where the ALP aspires to be.

From a right wing fringe you would see centre left as communism. It is not so. Your DLP is the fringe and deep down I think you know it.

When you start answering questions instead of posting irrelevant messages, perhaps we can engage. How about it?
Lorikeet - 4, December, 2011 (20:30)

ETS clearly has much to learn about what the Greens actually support.
Bob B - 4, December, 2011 (19:30)

In aviation term to fly assymmetrically usually signifies one engine is out in a multi-engined aircraft. I wonder just how this translates to a green backed bird that flys quite swiftly, and around our house, occasionally has a conflict with a window? The resultant concussion is what we see no doubt!!
Bob B - 4, December, 2011 (19:26)

You know Kay most people presenting an obvious outlandish proposition would realise they had to 'market' that propsition for it to be accepted. What we get is the equivalent of 'ram it down your throat' and we are expected to sit up and take notice. Methinks the left hand and the right hand are asymmetrical and thats being nice.
Heather C-D - 4, December, 2011 (17:49)

Helen, nope - I'm not trying to be aggressive at all. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you think it's been a one way street and that I've been aggressive to you, I would like to apologise. If you think I've misquote you, again, I would like to apologise.
Helen - 4, December, 2011 (16:34)

Good comment Arabella! I have been inside & outside all day in between storms. Whilst inside I watched the conf & checked on the blog.

It's time to do something else now - til tomorrow- Cheers...
Arabella - 4, December, 2011 (15:39)

I thought that from a fairly superficial look at the amount of the pay rises for pollies, that the amounts are peanuts compared to many private sector CEOS and in fact, maybe not as good as that which is paid to some public sector CEOs. We have to have better people in the political arena so lets hope the money attracts them as well as a passion for a great future Australia. At Fed level now, too much personal and specific, narrow comments and arguments have arisen, and 'greatness' of thinking seems to be suppressed by negativity and personal scores. I'm a swinging voter, so I can say that Paul Keating, Bob Hawke, and John Howard all tried to think in a 'great' way, whether they were right or wrong.
Helen - 4, December, 2011 (14:54)

You sound like an Echoe Heather. Are you sure you're not Lorikeet in disguise? You have the same aggressive tone.

I have no problem with those with an apposing view. Just with those with no explanation to follow up their views. At least I always say why I feel the way I do. It gives those for/against a chance to have their say. You just go for the jugular (just like l).

I have noticed this trait quite a bit here with just a few. No reason why, just hate of the other side. I mostly supported the Libs before. There are a couple in the party I don't like much at all. I had nothing against them in the beginning but formed this view after watching them in action this last year with no policy of there own to support their wild attacks...
Pearl - 4, December, 2011 (13:58)

Don't vote for pollies who care for their own benefits more than anything else. Show them our power at the next election.
Heather C-D - 4, December, 2011 (13:49)

Heather - 4, December, 2011 (12:42)
"Hey Heather! .... It is obvious that you are a staunch pro Lib."

REALLY? Wow!! When I wrote that I was talking about ALL politicians of all parties so I hardly think that makes me "a staunch pro Lib".

If you read other people's contributions when they've written "disgusting, "over the top" "greedy", "unfair" etc etc - does that make them pro-Lib? Not in my book-just simply expressing opinons about the specific question asked in the blog "Pollies' bonus has Aussies seething". And guess what? Lots of us are seething!

I'm not sure what you mean about "Your only, & last contr. 2/12 6.36 on this block". Wrong. I've posted a few times here and in many previous blogs-maybe you thought I agreed with you in previous blogs so you assumed I was staunchly pro-Labour or pro-Green then.
Helen - 4, December, 2011 (12:57)

Kay- You can at least disagree & give credit where it is due.

I only question why people feel like they do & are so against. When nothing much ever got done before by any prev gov since Menzies & now we are getting change (& some good ones), I question why so many want everything to stay the same!

Give the changes a go before passing judgement. Then the arguement is valid. Not preaching doom & gloom when our C/try is doing very well & looks to be going to get even better in the future.

If the gov truly fails & I personally don't believe they will, I won't vote for them either! Sadly though there is not too much to offer as an alternative...
Bob B - 4, December, 2011 (12:49)

Kay

We have been watching the conference today whilst stuffing envelopes for a friend.

The level of debate is generally good but quite noticable are the politicians used to the thrusting question time antics. Those used to normal debate stand out for their calm logic and style which is much more compelling than being shouted at constantly. Its a shame our parliament has decended to such a low level.
Helen - 4, December, 2011 (12:43)

contd to Heather -All promises fullfilled except off shore processing & I believe this will come. The C/T was due to a hung p & will be an ETS eventually.

Even the Libs don't want on shore processing. If they don't pass the leg they too will be in the same position if the Lab Gov do get voted out.

As for pay rises, I for one think the topic has been discussed enough & only so much can be said on such a weak topic. One can only agree or disagree, give an opinion & that's about it...
Bob B - 4, December, 2011 (12:43)

Heather C-D

To me its simple, if someone posts an unsupported claim and repeats it frequently without an iota of justification, then its just an unsubstatiated opinion drearily thrust upon us frequently. On the other hand if that person wants credibility some justification is warranted.

All that's happened here is a repeated wail of doom without justification and a request for justification answered by a repeated wail of gloom and a repeated request for justification. This could go round and around like wheel on a long trip. Personally I take no notice of oft repeated wails of doom without substantaition. The writer is simply put into the appropriate 'basket' in my mind and then has a deal of a job convincing me of anything at all.
Heather - 4, December, 2011 (12:42)

Hey Heather! Your only, & last contr. 2/12 6.36 on this block had a lot of pretty scathing attacks. Anything I said was really pretty tame. I just question.

It is obvious that you are a staunch pro Lib. I don't particularly follow anyone, only those I think are doing a good job. I still say there has been no damage & there has been a lot of good leg passed.
Kay Kelly - 4, December, 2011 (12:36)

Helen (cont.)

And I, a critic of the government, at least have been watching the ALP Conference and commenting favourably on various aspects of it.
Kay Kelly - 4, December, 2011 (12:35)

Helen

I'm afraid I agree with Heather C-D (11:35). As I stated before (7:51 3/11) the large number of bloggers merely reflects the interest taken by NSA members in this week's blog topic. Also, the criticism of the government by bloggers is also merely a reflection of what the polls are saying - this government is not popular at the moment.

In my case, I have raised my concerns about what I see as some unnecessary spending and the growing Budget deficit since 2007. I have also said before that there has been no specific detrimental effect on me by this government - YET. But that doesn't mean that I don't have concerns about the future effects of some of the decisions of this government. And I have never made any personal attacks on Julia Gillard, other than to criticise how she has handled certain political situations.
Heather C-D - 4, December, 2011 (11:35)

Helen - 4, December, 2011 (10:55)& (10:53)

"So far there has not been anyone who has given me the list." ... could be due to "personal" circumstances...so no, no obligation to report to you IMO.

"I also get tired of hearing the constant sky is falling & personal insults on the pres gov without any justification" .It's not just this forum Helen. Look at the results of the opinion polls about perceptions of performance etc

"It just seemed strange that on the v day of the conf, we had all these diff people not there before". A timing issue? Perhaps an increase in posters is more do with what this "discussion" is supposed to be about, ie, "What do you think about the latest politicians’ pay rise?"
John O'Grady - 4, December, 2011 (11:11)

Oh dear, oh dear .... Lorikeet is on the ran tan again (still?). Mad cow!
Helen - 4, December, 2011 (10:55)

(2)I have asked for a list for some time from those who think that the Gillard Gov have destroyed, harmed the economy or pensions for fellow bloggers (or anything else for that matter). So far there has not been anyone who has given me the list. It would be hard as there has been no damage.

I'm sorry if you didn't like my comment & think that it is rude to ask. I also find it rude to make personal attacks on people just out of dislike & not for valid reasons. If there is a real reason, I just wanted to hear.

I thought gov was there to run the C/try & not be constantly attacked on a personal level because someone thinks they have a big nose or big bum. these sort of comments make me angry too. These sort of personal attacks are made by both sexes & are most unfair on our PM in my opinion...
Helen - 4, December, 2011 (10:53)

opps! sorry about the repeat coming thru.

Heather I also get tired of hearing the constant sky is falling & personal insults on the pres gov without any justification. The C/try is being ruined etc is another. It just seemed strange that on the v day of the conf, we had all these diff people not there before. If they are genuine that's fine.

I have a right to question & also welcome new bloggers. Where are they now. Speak up if you are all still there contd -
Helen - 4, December, 2011 (10:41)

(4) Might sound fanciful, but think about it. Many who come don't like us at all. I know there is good in everyone. Living in ghettos shows their pref. Not too many other cultures live where I live but one hour away, it is almost completely Muslim territory around Parramatta & other parts of Sydney's suburbs.

Perhaps in Q it's not quite as noticeable. I believe Melb is similar. Shopping centres are full to capacity on working days & the parks, which shows us who works & who doesn't & their are kids everywhere & young men cruising the shopping centres looking to pick up chicks.

this can been seen on any day down here...
Helen - 4, December, 2011 (10:38)

(3) Might sound fanciful, but think about it. Many who come don't like us at all. I know there is good in everyone. Living in ghettos shows their pref. Not too many other cultures live where I live but one hour away, it is almost completely Muslim territory around Parramatta & other parts of Sydney's suburbs.

Perhaps in Q it's not quite as noticeable. I believe Melb is similar. Shopping centres are full to capacity on working days & the parks, which shows us who works & who doesn't & their are kids everywhere & young men cruising the shopping centres looking to pick up chicks.

this can been seen on any day down here...
Helen - 4, December, 2011 (10:36)

(2) Just saying live & let live is why we are being taken over in the first place in my opinion. Aussie's are pretty apathetic. This is not always good. Before we know it, everything we hold near & dear will be gone & it will be we who will have to go underground to keep our past Contd -
Heather C-D - 4, December, 2011 (10:35)

I posted 2 Dec & am revisiting this blog which looked like it was staying on track but then it happened...

Helen - 2, December, 2011 (14:13) "With all these new people on our blog who are so apposed to this Gov, would you make a list please listing how YOU have been adversly affected as a senior since the Gillard Gov came to office."

How rude! Since when do members of National Seniors (NS) have to answer to regular posters on any NS blog? It's not on to demand people to tell you about their personal hardships on an open forum.

We're ALL entitled to express our opinion on the payrise granted to MPs.

Someone mentioned the childlike behaviour of politicians, but IMO, this sandbox isn't much better at times.
Helen - 4, December, 2011 (10:34)

My personal views are not based on religion at all. However (marriage is). If the church bend & marry Gay couples isn't it against everything Christian & the bible? We are supposed to be in a Christian C/try, although this is fast changing. Our ideology is based on this. Some suburbs of Sydney are so heavily populated with elthnic groups who brawl & fight over religious issues now. I just wonder what their stance will be in regard to their culture & the fact that they hide the knowledge of their extra wives at the moment. I do believe it will open up a can of worms if this is successful.

What are the bloggers views on this. If Gay couples get the nod, are you in agreement/or not that other groups should also -Contd
Bob B - 4, December, 2011 (9:41)

Helen

Your right on the money. We brought other cultures into Australia in the past and all has been positive to date. Australia is a much better place today as a result.

Currently we are bringing and they are forcing their may in as well, another culture quite different from those of the past. Its an amulgum of culture, politics and religion with an uncharacteristic (from the past) outlook - we will conform with them rather than us all becoming a common group sharing the good.

Takeover is happening by stealth - the old Australia has a low birth rate whilst the Muslim community has a high birth rate. Its just a matter of time unless we proactively address the issue. Political correctness is currently preventing us from doing so. Some European countries are beginning to make a mark and I think we should be as active ourselves.
Kay Kelly - 4, December, 2011 (9:33)

Bob B.

I agree with you in that I too have concerns about the possibility of a 'Muslim takeover'. This concept certainly has been sprouted by some home-grown and foreign-born Australian Muslims. My great concern is that I don't see around the world many examples of true democracy in Muslim nations. Perhaps Indonesia is the only one? And even there, Islam seems to have a lot of influence. Also, there are a large number of Muslim nations where religion and State are definitely not separate. Tolerance does not seem to exist in these countries. The thought of Australia becoming like Afghanistan is truly frightening.

I might add, I value above all a complete separation of church and State - and that includes Christian religions.
ETS - 4, December, 2011 (9:33)

The issue is whether gay and lesbian people can marry. We are not looking at polygamy or bestiality, just an equal marriage right for gay and lesbian couples. It is very personal as Helen wrote but an Act of Parliament has to be amended for it to happen so it is a political issue as well. The conscience vote is a step in the right direction but still a cop out by a political party dealing with a sensitive issue. I think Julia Gillard will do to gay marriage what John Howard did to the republic referendum.

Lorikeet typically exaggerates the extremities of relationships to oppose a moderate proposal and does not make a credible case. We have laws protecting children. There will be no open slather on child brides. Bestiality does not come into it at all and, despite some of the nonsense she claims, it is not part of any Green agenda, pagan or otherwise.
Helen - 4, December, 2011 (9:26)

(2)Soon Anglos & the Indigenous will be the minority here & our culture will be taken over by other cultures. I guess that is what happens with Multiculturalism (& we haven't even had a war). It's friendly take-over.

Perhaps that's why I love old movies. It was a lovely romantic time. Everyone met at a dance & now it's on chat sites. Having large families was the norm. Now many don't want any.

The minority groups don't follow this principle so will soon out number us. I wonder what they think of Gay marriage within their cultures. There would be Gays there too in the ranks. will it make a difference or will they have to forever hold their peace...
Helen - 4, December, 2011 (9:25)

On one hand I am really for change (particularly as far as our C/try is concerned). On the other hand, I yearn to keep the face of Australia the same with previous ideals & strong family committment.

I married an immigrant (from Europe) who settled & fitted into our culture in every way. Too much is happening too fast here at the moment.
Bob B - 4, December, 2011 (9:20)

Kay, Robyn, Helen

Lorikeet is venturing into territory quite removed from the enjoyable wandering discussion. She tantilises by mentioning names and draws you in. Ignore it all and she will, as I have said before, spin herself into ever tightening circles and (maybe) disappear up her own thunderman!! She exposes herself graetly in this process.
Bob B - 4, December, 2011 (9:14)

Helen

The idea of multiple marriages with minors in the near future is not possible as it would not be embrassed by the population. For that to happen Muslims (and others who practice this) would need to be a majority in parliament or to influence parliament. I agree it is possible it could happen but not in the near or intermediate future - I opine it won't be a problem for my grandkids.

I am not going to loose sleep over it though I do have a fear of Mulsim takeover in the longer term. This would have a major impact on our way of life which will be quite different by then in any case. The path to it would be a very troubled society with the Muslim belief of eradicating the infidels.
Helen - 4, December, 2011 (9:10)

Like all things Kay, time will tell eh. As for Lorikeet, her sick personality is really starting to show through. Why does she search out these links if not for personal gratification.

Looking at them on our part would just feed her el sicko stand. Why does a simple comment always end up with a starring role from L?

There is little that I would agree with from her statements. Please don't ever think that I am like that too...
Robyn - 4, December, 2011 (9:05)

Further, Lorikeet:

You are spewing homophobic bile at its worst by tying your sick avenues into the issue of gay marriage rights.

Regarding your comment at (8:14): "Some have changed their value system to suit their own children, and although I am not without compassion, I don't let that compassion lead me to want to legalise anything I don't think should be encouraged."

Are you talking about me? I was committed to gay rights well before my children came out to me. Why? Because I have compassion for the struggles homosexuals have endured over the years. You, Lorikeet, don't know what compassion really is!
Kay Kelly - 4, December, 2011 (9:00)

Lorikeet

My value system is that I will not condemn something just because it is outside my current thinking. I do like to keep an open mind. I am definitely not constrained by any religion. In general, I only condemn actions which are harmful to others. A move to legalise same sex marriage, for example, would not harm others. Nor, I might add, would polygamy.
Kay Kelly - 4, December, 2011 (8:54)

Lorikeet

What is this evidence I am ignoring?

You have covered so many topics recently, that I'm not sure which "evidence" it is that I am ignoring! Please explain!
Robyn - 4, December, 2011 (8:42)

I have never complained to the moderator about anyone's comments before but this is really sick nonsense you are going on with Lorikeet, so I will be doing so tomorrow if these posts don't disappear in the morning. Of course the Greens moderator (Andrew Bartlett?) would have wiped your post! You appear to have learned nothing from it though! Stop imposing your SICK thinking which you project as stemming from other people's (especially greens) values onto the NSA blogs!!!
Kay Kelly - 4, December, 2011 (8:32)

Helen

Why not just let things proceed one step at a time without getting your 'knickers in a knot' about what could be. Every change to legislation is for the Parliament to approve. And as you know, most issues get a lot of press coverage and debate. So the likelihood of further changes such as legalising polygamy are unlikely to get much support. So let's not worry about that now! You are starting to agree with Lorikeet!

On the other hand, if decades from now, a majority of people happened to agree with polygamy, then in a true democracy we would expect to see legislative changes allowing this practice. That still wouldn't mean that it would become a majority practice, nor would it have any impact on monogamous marriages. So I, for one, am not losing any sleep over some remote possibility that would have minimal impact anyhow.
Helen - 4, December, 2011 (7:26)

I thought I heard it said that with the pollies pay rise, they were also going to be responsible for their own travel & some expenses. Is this true or was it a maybe?...
Helen - 4, December, 2011 (7:21)

Good morning all! I'm in agreement with a conscience vote. This sort of thing is v personal. There would be a lot of division within gov & the gov should not decide on this issue in my opinion.

I guess next the changes will be made for the Muslim community to have multiple marriages with minors (like in their own C/try)accepted.

Is there a line in the sand on this or does it open a can of worms for the future from all sorts of other groups...
Lorikeet - 3, December, 2011 (21:13)

The problem of paying pensions could be fixed by dealing with deficits in the Age Pyramid. This would mean having a robust immigration program and altering visas so that new Australians were not financially and racially discriminated against, causing them to return to their country of origin, as per the current difficulty.
Robyn - 3, December, 2011 (20:33)

Good on you Kay! I will do the same. It does feel good to give yourself some voice, even if they don't listen!
Robyn - 3, December, 2011 (20:24)

Thanks for answering WEG. That's good to know. I suspect it's not a big issue for most people, but that might be wishful thinking!
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (20:06)

Actually I did email the Liberal Party urging Tony Abbott to allow a conscience vote on same sex marriage when it comes up in Parliament, but I have doubt that mine is just an unknown voice in the wilderness. As I said before, I am not a member of any political party, but I do on occasion shoot off an email to voice my approval/disapproval when I feel strongly about something. I have no illusions about the impact of my email, but at least I felt better for expressing my view. I thought Tony Abbott said he was going to require a Party vote against it.
WEG - 3, December, 2011 (19:34)

I say, Live and let live.

What Tony Abbott and his party (as distinct from Mob) does is of no concern to me.

The labor conscience vote was substantially in the positive, then why did Labor not make it main stream policy to allow gay marriage. A slight cop out in my opinion, and a back down to appease PM Gillard previous public stance. The issue is squarely with Labor Coalition. They’re in Government. They have the numbers without any support from the Lib Coalition.

I know I have a specific value set, and in my past business life I’ve employed many hundreds of people. I’ve never discriminated against anyone because of gender, race, colour, or sexual preference etc. and that’s the way it should be.
ETS - 3, December, 2011 (19:20)

Thanks WEG. I'm glad at least part of it was public.
Robyn - 3, December, 2011 (19:02)

Thanks WEG. What do you think of the Labor Party's new policy on gay marriage? Reckon Tony should put it to a conscience vote with his mob?
WEG - 3, December, 2011 (18:46)

A decision was made by the Green party members to close sessions of their national conference held in the 1st week of Nov 2011 – in Fremantle W.Aust.

However, the conference was open to the public on Saturday morning only.
Robyn - 3, December, 2011 (18:37)

ETS,

No, I don't know either. I was surprised to hear from Kay that it might be the case. Wonder if anyone else knows?

Could be rather foolish of Tony Abbott if he does not allow a conscience vote and puts up firm opposition. As Laurakeet said, many people these days are aware of gay and/or lesbian family members or friends (now that so many are out of the closet) and would likely want to support new legislation. The 'minority' thus may not be such a minority!
ETS - 3, December, 2011 (18:01)

It’s a step in the right direction Robyn but I was really hoping the ALP would drop the conscience vote in favour of full support. Now we will have to see if Tony lets his team have a conscience vote as well. I suspect though that he will continue to say no and say he wants an election and he wants it now.

Kay, this is bad of me to admit but I don’t know if the Greens have their conferences in secret. I would not have thought so but I can’t say that for certain. Robyn, do you know?
Robyn - 3, December, 2011 (17:35)

Me too. Thanks Sue :)

The right to marry for gays is now official Labor Party policy. The conscience vote turned up 208 for and 184 against. New legislation will be put forward when Parliament reopens but it will need the support of quite a few Libs to get passed.

This is wonderful news and I am as happy as all the Gays and Lesbians out there. How do other people feel about this?
Helen - 3, December, 2011 (17:20)

Sue Do-Nim. I think you're a bloke! I just had the biggest laugh! haaa haaa heee heee tee hee.

Sometimes our blog is too serious - We all need to laugh & I did just that xx
Helen - 3, December, 2011 (17:15)

I think L suffers from "Imaginitis". I didn't get to see much of the conferance as I was so busy today. I must say though they I really like Penny Wong & consider her v good at her job. She is v pro Gay marriage for obvious reasons. The debate re gays will just go round & round like a merry go round so at risk of affending some of our fellow bloggers, I will remain quiet on this issue now.

I'm sorry I started L off on a tangent. Imaginitis is a tricky disease & there is no cure, so better not to argue eh!

Have a great night cheers everyone...
Sue Do-Nim - 3, December, 2011 (17:08)

Lori Keet:
So if an exceptionally attractive female approached you and tried to whisper sweet nothings in your ear…you’d run a mile..Right?

You’d remove yourself from that situation and not return for a long time..Right?

Lori, I have just 3 words to say to you…..I Love You.
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (16:19)

Just a parting shot.

I am very much enjoying the televising of the ALP Conference today. It has been very informative. I didn't see the Liberal Party Conference - was it televised? Someone in the ALP said today that the Greens held their Conferences in secret - is that true?

Anyway, I'm all for open, robust discussions such as that displayed today at the ALP Conference. Good on them! No doubt much tying up of votes etc etc has gone into today's performances. But I have still found it all quite inspiring. And you know I'm not exactly a fan of the government.
Robyn - 3, December, 2011 (16:16)

Gee Lorikeet, I have never imagined you as "butch" but you must be if so many lesbians are mistaking you for one. Not that all lesbians are butch of course but there is obviously something about you that is attracting such interest! What do you think it might be?

I have many lesbian friends and also know many other lesbians from my past work. None of them hang out in toilets to ensnare the unwary. In fact, I have never heard of lesbians hiding around toilet blocks.
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (16:10)

Lorikeet

What a sweet, kind and tolerant person you are! It is so good to see someone not at all judgmental of others. I am proud to share this blog with you!!

I'm off to our street party now. See you later.
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (15:44)

ETS

I did in fact look at both sites given by Lorikeet - euthanasia and polygamy.

The one on euthanasia was written by some 'right to life' group. It was talking about a report on euthanasia in Holland which claimed some people were being euthanased without their expressing a wish for it. I suspect that this sometimes happens in Australia too when doctors realise that the patient is suffering badly and there is no hope of recovery.

The polygamy story also happened in Holland. It seems the Dutch laws don't prevent it. But then, so what? I'm sure that Mormons and Muslims would like that possibility - just to mention a couple of groups. But that sort of thing is for Australia to subsequently decide on itself.
ETS - 3, December, 2011 (15:22)

Alby, it is a bit hypocritical to be complaining about gay people stealing words so you can't call yourself gay, when you have called them homosectuals, a brand new spelling. I doubt many gay people are part of that particular sect.

You're not Lorikeet by any chance, are you?
Helen - 3, December, 2011 (15:15)

She was also married. I eventually asked to to leave me alone. The second was obsessed & it was v distressing for me. Some Gays are v forceful in their approach.

(2) I don't have a problem with couples who want to live together. I just don't believe marriage will solve all the problems for them. I will always believe too that children need an equal balance in their life (girls & boys), so we agree to disagree on this issue I guess...
Helen - 3, December, 2011 (15:13)

I appreciate all of the comments (except Ls!). I don't believe gays are ALL born that way & that only some are. I have been persued twice in my life by gay women. Once when I was 18 & once in the last 20 yrs.

In the latter it would have been "optional" but when I was 18, I could have been turned around.

I had a very strong sense of not being Gay & really felt uncomfortable with this person wanting to brush my hair etc & wanting to be near me. She always turned up in the ladies when I happened to go Contd
ETS - 3, December, 2011 (15:13)

OK Lorikeet, I'll bite. Give us the names of the people in The Netherlands who have been euthanased without their consent. Bet you can't do it. What is the source of your information - gossiping over the back fence or eavesdropping on a conversation in the supermarket?

I am becoming more convinced that you are a Walter Mitty type character and the delusions are getting worse as you age.
Alby - 3, December, 2011 (14:46)

Male homosectuals stole the word "gay". The females decided on "lesbian". They TOLD the rest of us we would be called "straight".
Marriage is for the "straight" people. Let the homosectuals invent other words. Not a problem with that at all. The minority in this case should not rule - nothing to do with love, children or the like.
Alby - 3, December, 2011 (14:40)

Politicians get pay rise.
They lose some allowances so they won't spend on them - put it in the pocket.
To pay for the increases the 26,000 additional public servants in Canberra during the past 4 years should be put off.
The rules were changed so an independant body would determine the level of pay, and the polies blame that. If they think the increase is too much just change the rules back - simple.
Lorikeet - 3, December, 2011 (14:39)

http://www.euthanasia.com/holland99.html

Notice that the end of the article mentions doctors "taking" a decision.
Lorikeet - 3, December, 2011 (14:35)

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/301

This link is about the first polygamous union in The Netherlands, where they have already legalised same sex unions.

The Netherlands was also one of the first nations to legalise Voluntary Euthanasia. Now people are being euthanised without their consent.
Robyn - 3, December, 2011 (14:15)

Kay and Laurakeet, you got 4 more comments up while I was writing mine (I must be slow!). It was good to read them.

To continue with my earlier comment: If gay people get marriage rights this is a statement of TOTAL acceptance and recognition of their right to be exactly who they are. Also recognition that apart from sexual needs, their human needs are no different than heterosexuals. In short, it is the final major 'right' they need to have for equality in every way, not just legal equality. It will deliver a different message to young teenage gay people and will help to change attitudes in the mainstream. It will help to overcome the incidence of depression and suicide.
Robyn - 3, December, 2011 (13:51)

Well said Kay(13:35)! Except I personally prefer the word "acceptance" to "tolerance". I also believe that our sexual orientation is determined by genes. Young gay teenagers often go through personal hell discovering they are "different" to the majority. They don't get to explore and experience their sexuality openly in high school as other kids do in the normal progression of development. They fear school socials. They fear rejection by family and friends. Often they are bullied. And all of this happens at an age when peer acceptance is everything. There is a huge incidence of depression and suicide ideation which sadly is often acted upon. Why oh why would anyone choose this?
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (13:46)

Helen (cont.)

I know gays have made some advances in their recognition under the law. However, as Tanya Plibersek said today, why stop at being 'almost equal'. I believe in equality of opportunity. It is the opportunity to marry that I support. Whether we choose to marry is a personal decision for every one of us. But the opportunity should be there for all of us. Why should gays be treated as second class citizens, with access to only some of the opportunities available to rest of us heterosexual people? I for one can't think of any reason at all.
Laurakeet - 3, December, 2011 (13:41)

I cannot see anything wrong with gay people getting married. The quality of the relationship is the most important thing and if two gay people are in love and committed and supporting each other emotionally and in other ways, why should they be stopped from marrying? It won’t affect my marriage or anyone else. It should be a private matter just for the two people involved to make a decision.
Laurakeet - 3, December, 2011 (13:40)

Helen, this is from one grandmother to another and I hope you don’t think I’m picking on you, but I do disagree with your comments. I don’t know of any gay members of my family but I would not be surprised if there are because I think most families have gay people. Some of my friends have gay children and by and large they are well adjusted and interesting young adults. I should also say that the gay children did not come from a deviant family but were raised by loving heterosexual parents. So on that basis I don’t think we should stop people from having children because they are gay. There may be other reasons but sexuality alone should not be one.
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (13:38)

Helen (cont.)

I think the love and care shown to children is the most important. I would suggest that heterosexual parents have a poorer track record there than gay parents. I refer to the number of serious child assault cases, as well as murder of children, by their parents. I am more concerned about that.
Robyn - 3, December, 2011 (13:37)

PS. (to Lorikeet). Your links to polygamy are just plain stupid! There is absolutely no connection between gay marriage and laws to be allowed to marry more than once.
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (13:35)

Helen

I don't believe it is possible to know either way whether there are fewer or more gays in the community than in earlier times. There has been such a stigma attached to being gay that the incidence would have always been grossly under-reported. It is only lately that people have had the courage to 'come out of the closet'.

I am not an expert but I certainly believe that people are 'born gay'. I doubt anyone would 'choose' to be gay or could be turned into a gay person by their upbringing. Tolerance of difference is something I would expect of families that have gay family members or gay parents. I am not aware of any studies suggesting that gay parents raise gay children. In any case, gay people are definitely in the minority and are likely to stay that way.
Robyn - 3, December, 2011 (13:27)

While I appreciate Helen's willingness to express her views about homosexuality (even though I don't agree with any of them), I am really disgusted by your attempts to link gay people to bestiality Lorikeet. Now I AM waiting to see the true mettle of our Moderator here because your post at 3 Dec (12:36) is one that should most definitely be deleted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If it is not I will be complaining personally to the moderator first thing on Monday morning.
There is much misinformation and ignorance in the world about homosexuality and notions of 'normalcy' which makes me feel sad. But what you have contributed Lorikeet is not just ignorance, it is sly, willful, dangerous propaganda to sway people to your own distorted, devious, far from genius mindset!!
Helen - 3, December, 2011 (13:15)

There are more gays having children/bringing up children. I look after my gks. The girls watch what their mother does & copies. The boys copy what their father & gf do & all love to be with me to complete the mix. This is not forthcoming in a Gay relationship. Even in the animal kingdom, Tigers learn how to be tigers from tigers. The males chase out the other males to protect the blood line. This is the way it is.

Some people are different, it can't be helped but the majority of unions ideally should always be male/female, not only because of the social issues but the learning issues as a child is developing. All the legislation under the sun won't change what is ideal for a well balanced adult.

I sometimes wonder if having so many single parents now is affecting how many of our young people are developing sexually.
Helen - 3, December, 2011 (13:14)

Kay - We seem to have more Gays than ever before. Was everyone born this way? Why is it so important for them to marry when they can live better than ever before now?

There were no legal rights before & now there are. This was a problem. Otherwise not too much will change by getting married contd -
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (13:12)

Lorikeet

Your blog at 12:36 really takes my breath away! I'm with ETS here - if I didn't know you better I would think you were trying to introduce a little humour into the Blog. I mean, you must be joking!

Might I say that it is interesting you never answer any questions that bloggers ask you to explain/justify your views. It is much more fun to throw some other crazy blog into the system!
Robyn - 3, December, 2011 (13:05)

What a very good idea ETS. Please do this for us Lorikeet. I for one would love to know how your good Senator Madagin feels about his rise.
ETS - 3, December, 2011 (12:48)

Last one, I promise. Will you ask Senator Madigan if he will refuse to accept the salary increase? He might set a good example for the others. It is our money after all.
ETS - 3, December, 2011 (12:46)

On your political staffer comment, I cannot comment on how effective or otherwise your dear leader is in the Senator's office (nor could you if we are being realistic). I was simply making a point about the number of political staffers who later pick up a seat. It happens on both sides.

Oh and don't think for a minute the DLP did not make preference deals. They are in the game as much as anyone else. To think otherwise would only throw doubt onto your genius claims. (ouch!)
ETS - 3, December, 2011 (12:42)

Come on Lorikeet, out those two deviants NOW!! What are their names and what are the breeds of dogs? This is vital stuff. If people buy toys for their dogs they MUST be having sex with them. Name and shame, I say.

If I did not know you better I would think you were displaying a sense of humour. But I guess your son got that gene from someone else.

PS Your comments have absolutely nothing to do with gay marriage.
Lorikeet - 3, December, 2011 (12:16)

ETS:

Our party leader is currently a staffer with Senator John Madigan. Politicians have budding politicians on their staff for excellent reasons. It takes more than one politician's ideas to run the nation. Input from members also ends up in the speeches given in the HoR and Senate.

Our party has no skulduggerous global bankers.
Lorikeet - 3, December, 2011 (12:15)

Question:

"Why the huge increases in pollies' salaries?"

Answer:

"So we will all hate them even more and listen to no one (who might do the job better). Then they can continue with the Global Plan without inference, and keep 'taking' decisions from greedy bankers. The huge Xmas present of extra money helps to placate and subjugate wayward MPs and Ministers."

Here's just one way in which they could trim the public service. They could do away with the ATO jobs specifically designed to make Disability Support Pensioners put in income tax returns, even though no tax is payable. They could end the wastage associated with auditing DSP recipients every second year, even though, yet again, NO TAX IS PAYABLE!!!

I certainly never endured this stupid, wasteful rubbish under a Coalition government.
Son of Lorikeet - 3, December, 2011 (11:26)

ETS, you've just admitted that the Hawke Government was really the Village People - which one was the fireman and the Indian chief? How about the construction worker and the cop? Can't remember the others.
Paul K - 3, December, 2011 (10:41)

Paul Howse was no worse than Kroger. They gave it to each other. Stop being a right wing spiv and be honest about it. Can you do that much?
ETS - 3, December, 2011 (10:38)

Good points about the life experiences of our MPs. Too many come from union backgrounds on the Labor side and too many lawyers on both sides. Also there are too many Ministerial staffers on both sides who have gone from working for Ministers to being elected as MPs.

The first Hawke Ministries were in my opinion towards the top end of quality of the people involved. Interesting how many different fields they brought to the Cabinet room. They include the obligatory union officials, and also doctors, lawyers, farmers, a sheep shearer, school teachers, a nurse and even someone who managed a rock band at one time. Very wide experience. Things have gone downhill on both sides since then.
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (10:35)

Helen

Once again, I hear your views. I just don't understand your feeling that a move to allow gay couples to marry has any impact whatsoever on non-gay people. There has been no suggestion that "an alternative life should be promoted over & above a male & female union". This move is merely to allow gay people (the minority) equality with non-gay people (the majority). Why is this a problem?

And what is all this about test tube babies? Not all couples, gay and non-gay, want children. And for those couples, gay and non-gay, who want children but can't have them naturally, there are a range of alternatives. Is this bad?
WEG - 3, December, 2011 (10:32)

Taking up Kay’s comment on Doug Cameron.

You should have seen the vitriolic Paul Howes on Lateline last night. A blustering, incoherent individual that has greater aspirations, and maybe PM one day. God help us.
ETS - 3, December, 2011 (10:30)

My apologies Sue if you did look at the website. I doubt many people have looked at it so you would be one of the few bloggers who actually did a bit of research before commenting.

I don’t think Members of Parliament have to make a submission to the Tribunal. The Tribunal reviews and adjusts Parliamentary salaries annually.

The criteria used by the Tribunal are not spelt out in the legislation (as far as I could see) but there would be criteria for assessment. At one point the base salary was based on Senior Executive Service salaries but this has changed to a reference salary known as “Reference Salary A”. Without getting too technical (it’s on the website) there is currently a transition to a different process.

I agree the process should be more transparent in giving reasons. Having the base salary replacing other allowances is a move in that direction.

So, how much should they be getting?
Bob B - 3, December, 2011 (10:27)

Helen

I support your position with one change - teaching children that gay is not normal might have undesired consequenses later in life. I prefer an attitude of tolerance like man/woman is the way we are made but gay is one of lifes abberations. I support legally recognised same sex unions but not 'full' marriage with its religious connotations.

Interestingly, the ninemsn question of the day is gay marriage and the for are 66,000 ish and against 75,000 ish. Its pretty even in the nation.

Off now for an early Christmas lunch and dinner with a good friend away for Christmas with their children. We used to alternate years ago on Christmas Day but all our kids live in other states now.

Enjoy blogging and see you tomorrow.
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (10:23)

Bob B.

I agree with your concern about the large number of people from union backgrounds who are, or aspire to be, ALP politicians. It results in a very narrow experience and opinion base. And, as such, limits their real understanding of the issues affecting the population as a whole.

But I guess the Coalition doesn't always reflect the views of the wider population either. One lot (ALP) captive of the union movement, the other (Coalition) often captive of big business. C'est la vie!
Helen - 3, December, 2011 (10:16)

(3) I support our PM here. At least she is honest in her stance (& the way she chooses to live her life). Her parents are in a strong marriage & are christians. She was brought up this way but chooses to follow her own heart. I know there would be many who would disagree with me, but I also know that there are many not game to speak out for fear of being labelled. Those who have an opinion this is your opportunity to speak up now...
Helen - 3, December, 2011 (10:14)

(2) I also believe that only some people are born Gay, whilst for some it is learnt. Young people are very vulnerable whilst finding their own sexuality & can be swade by those who may become fixated. Committment yes, marriage no, teaching that being gay is normal no. It don't believe it is even though I can understand how hrd it is for a gay person in a family where there is no understanding.

My children are not gay but had one of them been, I would have supported them completely. I would not support a marriage though. A committment perhaps. Why do they want "marriage" anyway. There are many non gays who don't marry these days & just committ - Contd
Helen - 3, December, 2011 (10:12)

My stance is still the same on Gay marriage. all the legalities are there already for Gay couples re property etc should they split or die.

Marriage between a male & female should always be promoted first for the continuation of balanced life on the planet.

What next. Are all babies going to be conceived in test tubes? As mentioned before I really don't care one way or the other how people want to live their lives. That's a personal thing between couples. I just don't believe that an alternative life should be promoted over & above a male & female union - Contd..
Bob B - 3, December, 2011 (10:12)

I have done some reading on the link between IQ and 'smartness'. Suffice to say the jury is out (still) with no definitive concensus. I believe they are two independent factors with a minor linkage only based on my years of observation of people.
Bob B - 3, December, 2011 (10:07)

Kay

It's a worry that so many Labor MP and aspirants have union backgrounds. I think this is not good for the country. Its a matter of too much is not good. Some have excellent skills but others, (the large magority) can't make the jump into effective political life.
Bob B - 3, December, 2011 (10:04)

Lorikeet

You again throw your IQ into discussion. Do you have fluid intelligence or cristallized intelligence?
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (10:03)

Back to the ALP Conference - an excellent address by Tanya Plibersek - well done!!

I just wish we could see some equality of treatment given to gay people!! Such a move will impact not one iota on non-gay people! So why the opposition?

BTW I thought Dog Cameron's address yesterday was appalling! What is it with this guy that he can only make a point by name-calling and insults? Very poor standard of debate on his part!!! Similar to his pathetic input at the Alan Joyce inquiry!
Helen - 3, December, 2011 (9:51)

At the L conferance tdy it was announced that L are bringing in an Ins scheme for the disabled. From what I heard it will be similar to medicare. It was noted too how the States differ in the way the disabled are treated. This scheme with sure up this needy part of our culture.

I for one support such a scheme.
Bob B - 3, December, 2011 (9:50)

Here's an interesting article that runs contrary to most of us written by Madonna King a renounded juro and respected broadcaster:

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/it-pays-to-have-the-best/story-e6frerdf-1226212745110
Paul K - 3, December, 2011 (9:39)

More comments from a stoney right wing spiv. You can't help yourself can you mate? You make comments about economics and try to pretend you know what you're talking about, but it's rubbish. You're as bad as that woman who thinks she is a genius.
WEG - 3, December, 2011 (9:29)

The Reserve Bank is reducing interest rates and another reduction is on the cards for next week. In doing so the RBA is attempting to stimulating the slowing economy. If the Government is reducing expenditure, cutting jobs, etc, this appears to be contrary to RBA strategy! Someone’s wrong. Could it be Swan & Wrong.
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (9:26)

ETS

Sensible, measured comments as usual. Perhaps it was the timing viz a viz the mini Budget that got them into trouble? And, yes, it is the usual situation that both the Government and the Opposition are happy with pay rises. Rudd, to his credit, deferred a pay rise in poor economic circumstances. Latham, as crazy as he was, did diminish some pollies' benefits. A clever move shunting it off to an 'independent' tribunal, and then not having the power to refuse it. But I'm sure Abbott loves it as much as Gillard.

It is my understanding that the CURRENT pollies will get the pay rise, plus retain all the allowances the pay rises are supposed to subsume. Is that correct?

Off topic again - another terrific address - this time by John Faulkner!
Sue Do-Nim - 3, December, 2011 (9:24)

ETS:
Yes, of course many of us have looked at the R.T. Website.

The point I made very early in this Blog is how does the R.T. justify a 20%-30% increase.

There seems to be no mention of the criteria they use to adjust parliamentarians salaries.

For other entities that use the tribunal a submission has to be lodged.

In the case of MP’s …who made these submissions…Why would they do it now? …and what was their rationale for an increase?

Their workload hasn’t increased by 20-30%.

The increase isn’t consistent with CPI .

MP’s staff levels haven’t fallen…their productivity hasn’t improved.

Why the huge inreases??
Paul K - 3, December, 2011 (9:21)

Nothing incompetent about it mate. A good government held together very well in a tough year. Done a good job in my view.

What crap you write about public service job losses just support your assertion. You make it up as you go mate. You know Wong and Swan did not say that. Which jobs have been lost? Come on, be specific. How many?

As for broken promises, why believe anything from a right wing spiv?
WEG - 3, December, 2011 (9:13)

How incompetent is this Labor Coalition?

They’re accepting this huge increase in pay, and in the same breath, Wayne Swan / Penny Wong have reduced the Baby bonus, and 3000 Public Service jobs have got to go. He said we all need to pull in our belts during these tough times.
Great timing for this announcement, don’t you think.

Remember PM Gillard PROMISED no Public Servants jobs will be lost under a government she leads. Let’s clock up another broken promise!

At the Labor conference, Chris Bowen says he want’s to bring in more immigrants. Since Labor and the Independents / Green leaches have been in power, 14,000 have come by boats and 4,000 yet to come via the failed Malaysia agreement. So why don’t we all sit back and wait – they’re already coming!
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (9:13)

Right off topic here, but I am just watching Penny Wong's support of gay marriage at the ALP conference. An excellent address!! Very well done. I completely support her comments!
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (9:07)

Lorikeet

Again with the 2%!!! Perhaps there are those amongst us bloggers also in your beloved 2%, or even, dare I say it, in the top 1%!! But we rely on our ability to intelligently argue a point to indicate our intelligence, without boasting about some IQ test we had in the past! And trust me on this, many of us too have had IQ tests.

I refer you once again to the delicious quote provided by Sue Do-Nim at 7:43 30/11 - attributed to Einsten: "Unlike you Madam, I do not like to state an opinion on a matter unless I know the precise facts"!

Lorikeet, if you make a claim, it is reasonable to ask YOU to provide the evidence. Not me.
ETS - 3, December, 2011 (9:01)

This process information won’t mean very much to anyone who simply thinks politicians are paid too much regardless of their work or the approach taken to determining their pay. The question I would like to ask those people is, if politicians are being paid too much, how much should they be paid?

When are we going to get rid of this stupid 160 word limit?
ETS - 3, December, 2011 (9:00)

The comparison with Obama’s pay and the other world leaders is pretty superficial and raises a few questions. Do the comparisons include allowances or just the base salary? Do they include superannuation and other retirement benefits? Are they calculated on the same basis by an independent Remuneration Tribunal? Would a newspaper fiddle the comparison figures a bit to support its anti-government line? Would it be more relevant to compare politicians’ pay rates with those of Australian industry and business leaders than with leaders of other countries?

Anybody bother to look at the independent Remuneration Tribunal website to get the background to the pay rises? No? Definitely worth a look – www.remtribunal.gov.au. It shows that the parliamentary base salary is $140,910 (effective from 1 July 2011). All politicians receive this and additional salary for Ministers and other office holders is expressed as a percentage of the base salary. The percentages have not changed for some time.
ETS - 3, December, 2011 (8:59)

The vitriolic criticism of the Parliamentarians’ pay rises is hardly a surprise. Their pay rises are never popular and the Moderator’s introduction was hardly a neutral statement. The timing wasn’t great with the budget cuts, but who would criticise the Government for trying to be careful with the budget? Well, we do know who would do it.

Maybe the Government should have said the pay rises would be deferred, as the Labor Government has done before. Too late to do it now, it would just look like they would be responding to pressure and the usual critics would just have another excuse to whinge about them.

The Opposition and minor parties could always decline the increase but Tony has been very careful not to say no this time. Haven’t really read much criticism of him either… funny about that.
Laurakeet - 3, December, 2011 (8:58)

Lorikeet, I do not believe you have an IQ in the top 2 percent of the population. Nothing that you write on the many issues you cover supports it. What do you base this absurd claim on and when were you tested to determine it.

Just because you repeat it does not make it true.
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (8:54)

R. Ellis

Yes, the Blog usually strays away from the original topic because:

1. The topic is often 'light on' and most people have their say early on and have nothing further to add on the nominated topic;

2. Other more important issues arise during the blog week and people just want to express their views;

3. Some blogger raises an interesting topic that others want to comment on.

I don't see this as a bad thing. There are many times when, if it were not for us 'regulars', there would be no comments at all after the first day or two. We too are members of the NSA and should be able to use our blog.
Lorikeet - 3, December, 2011 (8:54)

Okay, have it your way. Those of us who have IQs in the top 2% of the population don't understand anything much at all. We have been left behind while others are streets ahead.

Most people would understand that the so-called group of cronies contributing here are mostly NOT friendly towards me.

I have no interest in "cosy chats".

If Kay wants evidence, she can do what I always do, and check it out for herself.
Doreen H - 3, December, 2011 (8:52)

re pollies pay rise. They should hand it back.
with the pensioners having hard times, health support. If anything, maybe a $5000.00 rise but not the reported $80,000. They maybe our politicans, but they havent proven their worth to be given this payrise. Maybe the arbitration commission or whoever granted this needs to get their heads up and see what is happening in Australia.
R ELLIS - 3, December, 2011 (8:42)

You're wrong, Lorikeet. Many Seniors have left this blog because it's always hi-jacked by you and your cronies.

Many of the topics posted for comment are interesting and worthy of considered discussion.

Every week I check the first few entries to see how the topic is progressing, hoping for some insightful input. There usually is - for a while.

But too often the discussion descends into cosy chats,snide retorts and, eventually,ends up miles away from the original topic.

Why not talk on the phone to each other? Then the rest of us would be spared the trivia.

Please stop hogging the blog.
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (8:28)

Lorikeet

Where is your evidence that some of the people who have left the blog "are rabid Labor supporters who don't like losing an argument"?

As for losing arguments, you appear to not be really capable of an 'argument'. Your tendency is to make some extreme statement, then accuse those of us who challenge the statement of 'not understanding' or 'having our heads in the sand'. This is not winning an argument! This is just insulting other bloggers. It appears that you don't understand the difference!
V Janus - 3, December, 2011 (8:20)

May God's Light shine brightly around them so they can see the error of their ways.

brccwb
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (8:17)

Lorikeet

What is your solution to providing aged pensions to the rapidly growing number of the above-65 age group?

I don't know why you object to employers being made to contribute money towards the superannuation pensions of their employees. And it is not unreasonable to ask younger people to also contribute something towards their old age. I remember when I started working for the Commonwealth public service I couldn't understand why I had to put in money towards this oh-so-far-distant future. But how glad I am now that my employer 'knew better'! I am glad that I now have more income than I would get if I were on the old age pension. So - I have to learn about managing my funds in a volatile situation. Better than living in penury.
Lorikeet - 3, December, 2011 (8:09)

To my knowledge, 70% of Australians (and possibly a greater percentage of Queenslanders) want Labor/Greens out of the parliament.

A large percentage of abusive comments come from Labor/Greens, rather than Liberals.

Some of the people who have left this blog are rabid Labor supporters who don't like losing an argument.

There are certainly more contributors to meaty topics, especially those which pinch the hip pocket nerve and make older people justifiably angry.

I still believe that rude Chat Room people drive people away from the blog and give us all a bad reputation.
Lorikeet - 3, December, 2011 (8:03)

Here is another prediction about the financial future, based on some ideas that have already been floated by the Henry Report into Taxation, and the Productivity Commission Report into Aged Care.

Older people will be forced to live off reverse mortgages on their homes, which will be assets tested against the pension.

The retirement age will be lifted to 75, and many people will never receive a return on their superannuation investment.

Anyone who cannot work and has no assets will be placed on the one measly Generic Allowance (regardless of age), which will replace all of the current payments, allowances, benefits and pensions.

A Voluntary Euthanasia Bill will be passed (as it has been in other nations) and the situation will quickly become Involuntary (regardless of legislation stating otherwise).

The aged care centre and (in some instances, the hospital) will literally become the last S.T.E.P. in life's journey (Short Term Euthanasia Phase). Eventually a Euthanasia Age will be legislated.
Sandra Hass - 3, December, 2011 (7:57)

Politicians' pay is a catch 22 - not well enough paid - the best people may not come forward. Too much - they're there for the money?? Perhaps each should negotiate with the electorate he or she represents to find his or her worth - a base amount to start with, then according to the electorate's evaluation. Most do work hard, though not all seem to work for the best of the country or the electorate.
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (7:51)

Helen (cont.)

As for the wide range of bloggers - it just confirms my view that if a topic interests NSA members, they will contribute their views. I had maintained before that a paucity of bloggers was all about an unappealing topic, not the robust responses by us 'regulars'. This connection (between us 'regulars' and the low number of other bloggers) was put forward by WEG (18:34 23/11) and Lorikeet (19:36 23/11).

I heartily concur with Bob B.'s comment (13:22 2/12) that it is terrific to see so many 'non-regular' bloggers contributing!

I also agree with Bob that CEO's incomes are appallingly high - and certainly not warranted by any measure!

As for your suggestion (13:04 2/12) that the blog may have been "stacked by the opposition", I'm afraid this blog just supports the pollsters' figures that the current government is 'on the nose'. You may consider their views are unwarranted, but they no doubt have reasons for their views.
Lorikeet - 3, December, 2011 (7:50)

I cannot imagine a scenario where Labor could actually win another election. They would have lost government in 2010 if it were not for the various skulduggerous moves already described.

What I cannot understand is why a few Labor voters still think that Liberals do a worse job of managing the economy/country than Labor, but I would agree that they don't care very much about workers, women, children or the elderly.

John Howard's Work Choices legislation was designed to crush the worker, while Fair Work Australia (under Labor) is an improvement, but still far from perfect.

I think 2012 may hold the instalment of Bill Shorten from the Communist Left as PM, and Perrett leaving the parliament, as he said he would if this occurred. I believe this is why the Contingency Plan has been "enacted", with Slippery Pete in the Speaker's chair.
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (7:43)

Helen (cont.)

I assume your blog at 14:07 2/12 refers to my blog at 16:59 1/12? I was using figures in the Courier Mail to answer Robyn question at 16:41 1/12 re what 'the rest get'. I included the overseas comparisons because most TV commentators were also including them - and I think most people find them interesting, although of course there are a whole host of other issues that may impact on those comparisons.
Lorikeet - 3, December, 2011 (7:38)

Contrary to some people's beliefs, what they are incorrectly perceiving as a lack of understanding on my part regarding superannuation, is a knowledge of what is likely to happen in the perhaps not too distant future.

My own brother self-manages his superannuation holdings, which I agree is being encouraged by the government, but not for the benefit of the individual. I believe this is a minus, not a plus, as I expect time will clearly show.
Helen - 3, December, 2011 (7:36)

Sorry for my "typos" in my prev blog. I had one eye on the clock. It's telling me I should be doing something else.

I find our blog rivetting reading. You are all too active O/N & it doesn't allow me much time to reply. Must be off & will check in later.

Beautiful day here today (Spring in summer). I'm going outside to cut the grass & organise the garden before it's gets too warm.

Have a great day wherever you are too - Cheers...
Helen - 3, December, 2011 (7:30)

(2) ContdIf the Libs do get in next time, how are all the doubters going to react to the withdrawing of all the benefits they will receive starting next May. Business too when all what is put in place for the ETS is also ripped. What about those with lousy internet in remote areas (even here in the H/bry) when the NBN is cancelled & they Aussies are taxed so that the Libs can pay those who foul up out c/try & take the profits O/S. Not to mention all the new jobs created & being learnt by our young people are cancelled. I could go on & on. Public servants will be sacked to raise money that they haven't got to pay for policies that they don't have.

Why is it that the older generation are so inflexible to change? Are we to go back to the bad ol good ol days. I pray that we won't...
Helen - 3, December, 2011 (7:29)

Good morning! Robyn it seems that no one can supply the list that I have been asking for for so long either! We can't get an answer on how the C/try is being wrecked either (because it's not happening!).

There always seems to be a return to the infamous & probably regretted statement from our PM re C/T. The Libs would have been in this position too had all the shoulder slapping & hugging been successful for the Libs. The greens & Ind liked Julia Gillard's hugs better! The L's tried v hard though to no avail. They have been spitting bile ever since.
Kay Kelly - 3, December, 2011 (7:22)

WEG, Bob B.

Good comments on superannuation. Adds to what I said previously (I think it was the previous blog). I'm not sure why Lorikeet just doesn't seem to understand these 'basics'.

Helen

You seem to be upset at my criticism of the Federal Labor government (14:13 2/11). I can only assume you refer to my blog at8:44 2/11 in which I criticised Labor governments' record of money management? I would think the facts pretty much support what I say. Howard inherited a huge deficit in 1996. Swan inherited a surplus in 2007. We are now in deficit again. And if surpluses/deficits are not important, why is Wayne Swan 'busting a gut' to get back to surplus?

I also expressed my hope that the current Coalition will be a good at managing money as the Howard/Costello government was. I have my doubts about Abbott/Hockey.

I don't know why you should have been so upset at this.
WEG - 3, December, 2011 (6:44)

Lorikeet, Bob B has explained the Supn environment reasonably well (20.04/5).

A superannuation segment call SMSF is a substantial portion of the $1.4Trillion superannuation, where individuals invest & manage their own future retirement plans. At this stage it is encouraged by main stream politics. There are other superannuation sectors in addition to those you’ve noted.

Whilst the age pension is very important component to ‘catch’ those people who have limited or no superannuation, Governments could not afford or even contemplate returning to the old days when everyone was guaranteed an aged pension, especially since our group is living 5 – 15 years longer. This is not the only consideration to this complex debate though.

Greece, as an example, has a major problem with public spending, including guaranteed pensions post 50 years old. It’s a welfare state with limited national income, hence the austerity measures / cuts they need to take.
Sue Do-Nim - 2, December, 2011 (21:42)

Bob B:

Thanks for that..sorry I missed it.

Lori K:

Where's your young-un?
He hasn't surfaced for a few days..School Holidays maybe?
Bob B - 2, December, 2011 (21:33)

Sue Do-nim

Yes, I believe you arrived after the caution. Things got quite interesting shall we say where some really showed true conflictual colours. Conflict and stuborness at its best - a bar brawl in the 50s type thing. "We" needed quidance from mother and calm prevailed.

L claimed victory but cooled her heels for a while. I would just like that state to continue with robust discussion where necessary without abuse by slight or otherwise.
Sue Do-Nim - 2, December, 2011 (21:13)

Hi Bob B @ 19:41

When did the NSA Administrator/Censor/Word Policewoman/Moderator appeal for calm....I missed that.

Was that before or after she dispatched me unceremoniously to the Virtual naughty girls' corner??
Robyn - 2, December, 2011 (20:57)

Lorikeet:

This is a blog. Blogs can be conflictual. I am challenging WEG to back up his statements and to account for a past accusation. That is OK. You are hardly the one to sermonise about being conflictual on a blog.
Neville Ward - 2, December, 2011 (20:51)

I wasn't surprised at anything that goes on at federal level with politicians.I am not surprised at the latest of the antics!! Just grin and bear it 'cause it aint gonna stop!
Lorikeet - 2, December, 2011 (20:41)

Robyn:

If I were you, I would stop trying to create a personal conflict where there isn't one.
Lorikeet - 2, December, 2011 (20:39)

Bob B:

What I am saying here would be considered as quite moderate by most people. A lot of my input has probably never been thought about before by some.

I also appreciate other people's input.

Today I felt quite disturbed by television reports of projected worldwide economic chaos. I could see this coming more than 30 years ago, when I was not anywhere near as well informed as now.

I was never concerned about superannuation holdings when they were only being applied to government workers and semi-autonomous bodies.

But when all employers and employees were forced into schemes controlled by transnational corporations, alarm bells started ringing.

In the old days, everyone was guaranteed a government pension. Even the poorest person had a livelihood in their old age. Those who could save money could do it without worrying about its fate, and they could easily get it back at any time.
Bob B - 2, December, 2011 (20:05)

cont

Rather than a sinister move to do away with a government based scheme, I see a sound move for people to plan properly for their retirement. Of course this is industry based as it must be if its not government based and there is a lot of money involved. This is more a natural thing in today's environment than a sinister plan to reduce us all to paupicy. There was too much reliance in the stock market that has been running uncharacteristically wild the last years. Maybe more should have been invested in property.
Bob B - 2, December, 2011 (20:04)

Lorikeet

Your 17:39 points to your view about the privitisation of pensions as you call it. There has been private pensions about for a long time but years ago many more people took the government based old age pension. With the call for people to be self reliant more are now on industry based schemes but the old age pension remains and the way things are going will be used by more and more people. Of course you are aware of this.

cont
Robyn - 2, December, 2011 (19:58)

Regarding the apology. You may be happy with what Kay said but to me that doesn't seem to cut it. You indicated that a few of us , by being more chatty than others and by daring to challenge Lorikeet, were destroying the NSA blogs and driving people away. I can't retrieve the information right now because I will lose my post but I am sure you know exactly what I am talking about. I do think it would be good of you if you can bring yourself to recant and apologise.
Robyn - 2, December, 2011 (19:52)

WEG:

Your response about your 10:15 comment is just what I expected. A smokescreen!!! You are right in that you don't usually respond directly to questions. Slippery! just like the Pollies.

Obviously you don't like Tony Abbott's performance being called "woeful". Appears you have no argument on this point WEG! It strikes me that your mind is very much "set" in the same way you suggest mine is. I note that you did not answer my question!

(have to continue because of this painful word count!)
Bob B - 2, December, 2011 (19:41)

Our topic was running along quite nicely today until Lorikeet re-entered the 'conversation'. All of a sudden there is a turbity that I find off putting. No abuse directed at a blogger specifically but a phrasology and style quite unlike the more moderate style she has used since the NSA moderator appealled for calm.

Lorikeet, can you please return to the more moderate style you have demonstrated you are capable of for the sake of all of us, especially the new entrants.
WEG - 2, December, 2011 (18:53)

Hi Robyn.

I don’t usually respond directly to such Q?s but you’re so persistent and it appears I have inadvertently caused you some concern.

My (10:15) is a statement of fact. Quite succinct I thought. No ambiguity. No further explanation required.

My (10:53) comment. If you had not used the descriptive ‘woeful’ in the Q?, then I may have contributed to your debate.
I’ve have no need too, nor the energy to debate a point for which you’ve already made up your mind.

Finally, you’re latest blog. I’m really not sure why you want me to apologise. I’m happy with what Kay said.

PS:
Why the interest in my opinions?
I may appear oppositional in your mind, but my life experiences to date, my value set obviously differs from yours.
Accept this like I accept your input and you’ll feel a lot better.
Robyn - 2, December, 2011 (18:40)

WEG.

I forgot about my previous question 2 Dec, (9:09).

Are you willing to apologise?
Robyn - 2, December, 2011 (17:59)

WEG:

Would you please answer the questions I put to you at 2 Dec (10:53).
You said on 2 Dec (10:15): "When Seniors perceive they're not getting value for money then it's quite appropriate for them to link performance back to remuneration."
My question was: "Do you think Tony Abbott's woeful performance as Opposition Leader is worth $333K per annum?"

You then said: "We all know the performance of the current government, mainly due to the coalition with some extreme groups, has wrecked this country."
My question was basically: Who are these extreme groups? Are you talking about the one Green and the three independents?

I also would be interested to know, in what ways, specifically, you think this country has been wrecked.

No smokescreens WEG. Straight answers please.
WEG - 2, December, 2011 (17:41)

This is one of the best blogs we've had. Interesting topic, plenty of angles and points of view. All good stuff.
Lorikeet - 2, December, 2011 (17:39)

Marianne S:

CEOs get their pay packets directly from your wallet, purse and bank account every time you receive bills and pay bank fees.

The discrepancy between interest rates offered to depositers and those charged to borrowers also blew out decades ago.

Where CEOs are concerned, the most skulduggerous mongrels get the highest payouts for exercising their robbing and rationing skills.

As I have mentioned before, the worst thing that ever happened to our nation was the Privatisation of Pensions, which has empowered banks and associated bodies to rip us all off through every avenue.
WEG - 2, December, 2011 (17:36)

....input did not insult me - quite a balanced stance, and only one person's view. Other Seniors can provide a different perspective if need be.
Robyn - 2, December, 2011 (17:28)

You are the first to insult other bloggers on this strand Lorikeet!!!!
Lorikeet - 2, December, 2011 (17:28)

wyn:

The Labor government is doing exactly what you suggested. They are winding the company (country) up and letting globals take over. That has been the goal of Labor/Liberals ever since the end of World War II, using:

Slowly...slowly...catchee... monkey

as their main policy guideline.
Lorikeet - 2, December, 2011 (17:22)

Helen:

The only reason Labor was re-elected was because Julia Gillard said there would be NO CARBON TAX UNDER A GOVERNMENT SHE LEADS. She also picked up votes from women affected by the "matriarchal glow" of having a female PM.

Without:

1. Julia Gillard (woman)
2. A colossal lie
3. Stupid independents

we would not have a Slave Labor Party government.

I don't like Liberals all that much, but I think WEG has a moderate stance on the whole, while others have their heads buried firmly in the sand. Perhaps sand in the ears also causes short memories for the many insults dished up.
Lorikeet - 2, December, 2011 (17:15)

Some people make the mistake of believing that the Slave Labor Party aren't Greens themselves. While Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd appear to be trying to salvage their splintering party, their aim is to pass their members and voter base to Greens.

Helen is quite right in thinking that politicians get treated very badly by the voting public. Even though I have never run for election, as soon as I mention an interest in politics, the kicks in the guts commence automatically.

I feel empathy for the DFRDB pensioners. In 1985, I was hired along with a Registered Nurse to work on medical files for the Veterans' Review Board. Bob Hawke was doing his best to reduce entitlements of as many of our veterans as possible. Files were stacked to the ceilings, and the workload became so great that we had to get help from several people from the Pensions Section.
Lorikeet - 2, December, 2011 (17:08)

If WEG is suggesting that the Greens are "an extreme group", this would be 100% accurate. Although they have many caring people as members, their main aim is to destroy our standard of living, reduce us to a peasant lifestyle, and redistribute wealth across the world.

They are turning Regional Australia into an economic wasteland where people have no jobs.

Senator John Madigan's electorate office in Ballarat is right across the road from Centrelink. He said his area now has a thriving trade in poverty, with the places most visited by locals being op shops and Centrelink.

The DLP expects to pick up at least 2 more seats in Tasmania and the Latrobe Valley (VIC) as soon as an election is held.
Judy - 2, December, 2011 (17:04)

Why do politicians & CEOs get such high salaries and why the recent 23% increase? Try to give the common person a 5% increase and there is such an uproar from the companies they work for, going to arbitration etc. Then you'll find a CEO retiring on a massive package and, so often, the company folds after the CEO has taken his golden handshake and said, though not in as many words, "to hell with the rest of you".

What about this huge deficit announced a few days ago - some of the big increase to the pollies could have paid off some of the deficit and they could have waited, and taken a smaller (much smaller) percentage increase in time.

Come on, you guys - get real!
Peter Caldwell - 2, December, 2011 (16:28)

To the extent that the pay rise replaces allowances already received by politicians, I strongly favour it. Allowances are hidden, salaries are not. Moreover, politicians (in power or not) have jobs and lives that most people would find totally unacceptable for any salary. On balance, I generally support the proposals - and no, I will not myself benefit in any way. To me, it seems quite inappropriate that many Company CEOs are paid very much more than any politician.
Helen - 2, December, 2011 (15:44)

Catch you all tomorrow. I'm off to dinner with some friends (should be more of it)
Cheers everyone...
Helen - 2, December, 2011 (15:42)

WEG - My question was YOU personally. How have you been adversly affected? It's clear you are a "died in the wool Lib".

As for the so called lie. It was an ETS that Gillard wanted as first choice if you remember. Who would have known there would have been a hung parliament. Everything else has been delivered (just as promised).

The Libs (who I voted for last time) were shameful all year & lost in the end. They didn't destroy the government & all that was planned got thru except off shore processing.

The Libs were stupid here too because if they are elected next time, the Labour party will not stand by them & they will be in the same position (not very smart!)eh!, so it will be on shore for them as well. There have been a number of improvements for pensioners & handicapped lately (more than before), not less...
Alan Cooper - 2, December, 2011 (15:39)

Like everyone else Pollies should get a pay rise. But the amount, deservedly, should be decided by an independant body. I believe this is how the latest rise was granted. If we don't agree with the method used to calculate it then we should let them know. If we still aren't happy then we vote accordingly. Not that this will do anything or have any effect. For the first time in years we have actually found something that both leaders agree on. Personally, I think the Prime Minister, whoever he/she is, should be one of the highest paid people in Australia. Just have a look at how much any world leader ages in their couple of stints in the so-called top job. And at least this rise takes into account that in the future these people will not be getting all of the freebies that they now enjoy after retirement.
WEG - 2, December, 2011 (15:15)

How have we been adversely affected as a Senior since the Gillard Government came to office? This Q? was asked earlier (14:13).

As a Senior, my values have been impacted

Honesty:

Truth was the first to go with this PM. Her minders spin it any which way to suit their cause. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. PM has negotiated ‘closed door’ deals with the Unions, Independents and Greens. If it were a Company, the ACCC penalise them for non disclosure.

Ideology:

Labor swing many deals & says anything to remain in power. They have vested interests in Unions, NBN, windpower and solar power run by their collectives. It’s like a virulent virus.

The blog is also evidence of what Seniors think of the current Parliament. My estimate suggests 95% of participants are adversely affected.
Tina Namow - 2, December, 2011 (14:43)

I find it interesting that people don't show their anger at greedy mining companies, CEO's of a variety of companies that earn more than our Prime Minister, even footballers earn more than she does. Yes I am living on the pension and I do wish I had more money just to buy things like food and petrol but compared to the greedy people I mentioned they have little responsibility compared to our Prime Minister, she has to run this country and try to balance it all out. I think no one deserves the amount of money we pay all of these people but she is no worse than any one else.
Joycelyn Stewart - 2, December, 2011 (14:30)

Whilst ever we have people called POLITICIANS, we will never have any real equality. For some reason, they think they are worth it but they have forgotten from whence they came. Even big directors of companies and Sports people...are not worth the salaries they are paid, especially as We....ARE the people who pay all to the privelledged few...
wyn - 2, December, 2011 (14:22)

You have to ask how much would you pay Wayne Swan to do the books for your company or Juliar to run the joint .Imagine how many would walk out if you had Rude Rudd supervisor or Albanese in charge of manufacturing
Rates of pay should be on performance and with the Debt clock for the Australian public currently in excess of $16000 for every man woman and child --it would be cheaper to close the door and wind the business up than employ this bunch .Lets not kid ourselves --we are not doing all that well when we rate on par with Mexico for debt and that sort of performance does not merit pay increases
Helen - 2, December, 2011 (14:13)

(2)I don't agree with Kay's opinion re the Government either. With all these new people on our blog who are so apposed to this Gov, would you make a list please listing how YOU have been adversly affected as a senior since the Gillard Gov came to office. Please don't mention"pink bats" or anything from the Rudd debarcle as it is a different Gov under Gillard.

Also I will be interested in having the same conversation at the end of next year when there is real change. I personally think you will have trouble making a list then as well.

Our C/try needs change & for the first time in fifty yrs someone has had the guts to implement some.

It's been downhill from all Gov since Menzies left office as far as forward thinking has been concerned in my opinion...
Marianne S - 2, December, 2011 (14:12)

As a former Commonwealth Government employee I would like to see the productivity increases made by our pollies which warrant such an outrageous payrise. If 3% is good enough for the rest of us, why not for them? Public servants have to show increased productivity based on established performance criteria and payrises cannot be linked to the CPI so how about it pollies? It is a national disgrace and no doubt about it. I agree that the CEOs are even more vastly overpaid, but at least that is not paid out of my hard earned $$$
Helen - 2, December, 2011 (14:07)

Kay - does that mean that every Aussie should take a pay cut too? Our wages here are quite a lot higher than in the States. In comparison, although Obama gets a little less. Everything there is cheaper than here (that's our problem in this C/Try). Besides we don't know what his perks are either. Security alone must cost the US a zillion. Not to mention their elections that go on forever.

Gone are the days when a little Joe could be Pres in the US. One just has to have money now. Donals Trump is even considering standing O/there Ugggh! - Contd

Here at least one can start small & become PM. I like OUR democracy much better. Contd -
Dulcie - 2, December, 2011 (13:56)

For many years I have worked for a prearranged commission paid on completion of an assignment.
No success, no pay. More people should be rewarded for success and not failure.
WEG - 2, December, 2011 (13:52)

What’s the difference with say the NBN (Government monopoly)CEO, Mike Quigley, $2 million base salary, plus bonuses. The network has less than 10% success rate in the roll out. A real failure by any Corporate measure.
WEG - 2, December, 2011 (13:44)

Rex -(11:59)

I agree with you sentiment re CEO’s.
Here’s a comparative scenario though. If PM Gillard (quasi CEO) who runs a company worth $1.3Trillion, plus Wayne Swan / Penny Wong (quasi CFOs) delivers a budget deficit of $22.5B, and now estimated that it will blow out to $37B for tax year 2012, and then said they will deliver a profit of $1.5B mid 2013, they would fired by the Board. They would not need to wait until the next Shareholder’s meeting.
Kate - 2, December, 2011 (13:23)

What on earth gives any of them the idea that they are worth more than the leaders of both USA and Britain. They can't even manage a small population like ours. They should be having their salaries reduced, not increased.

I see another Kate has joined the ranks. I hope we don't cause too much confusion
Bob B - 2, December, 2011 (13:22)

Helen

We are not under siege and its nice to see a number of fresh people on the blog. My, hasn't the topic got e'm going?

Most disagree with some conviction. Some have rightly pointed to the disparity between the public and private sectors. There is a definite imbalance that cannot be easliy fixed.

I do not believe our pollies remuneration be raised to the level of CEOs at all, rather the CEOs need to be kept stationary until the rest of us catch up. That won't happen though because the CEOs do it because they can.

Also, they are in their own secular club living quite oblivious to the rest of us and compete amoungst themselves to be cock of the walk. Reminds me of the saying 'a headless chook' but on TV they look like chookless heads!!!
Helen - 2, December, 2011 (13:04)

Allan Joyce got a $2 mill bonus, a mix of money & shares (not a word about him!).

It seems that our blog is under siege! Where were you all before? We seem to have a heap of new bloggers all of a sudden.

Could it be our blog has been stacked by the opposition? Blogging family what do you think?

There are many names who had no input before & who are there now. does this mean that we are ruled by jealousy/money/greed & the tall poppy syndrome (or something else hmmm!)...
Bob B - 2, December, 2011 (13:04)

Niel

You hit my nail on the head. I have said several times on the blog that no CEO is worth more than 10 times the average salary for the industry the company is in. How to bring this about after rampant runaway is the impossible question. It just won't happen. All we can hope for is for a slow down until others catch up. They do it because they can and that's what we need to address.

Like some have suggested, I believe this has an automatic flow on the the states and regional government as well. And that's not fair as this large rise should have a heafty loss of side benefits like the gold card abolished. If this doesn't happen then they stand very open to accusations of double dipping. So state and regional pollies/councillors will get an unwarranted rise on the basis of the federal unwarranted rise.
Jim - 2, December, 2011 (13:00)

We get the politicians we deserve: the incumbents are not smart enough to be crooks. The current ALP machine is a complete "dog's breakfast" it would take a career politician to navigate their way through it - too bad about the voters! This is bureaucracy at its worst.
Muriel Johnson - 2, December, 2011 (12:53)

You get what you pay for. When you compare our pollies salaries to CEO's and Directors of Multiple Boards I'm in favour of the pay rise.
Two other issues I would like to see dealt with by someone with clout are: 1. Government by Polls ------ time this issue was dealt with and all the pit falls revealed.
2. Director's of Boards. The old boys network alive and well here. How someone can sit on several boards (& be nicely remunerated) and give the attention required is beyond me. Time to look closely and do something about this one as well.
niel - 2, December, 2011 (12:40)

Re Rex - 2 comparing PM to CEO salaries.
Some time back the average was around $30,000 and CEOs were paid around $300,000. Now the average is around $60,000 and CEOs don't get $600,000 but $6,000,000. Rex you should be arguing that CEO salaries should be reduced by a factor of 10 and then the PM etc won't look too bad!
Don Gamble - 2, December, 2011 (12:19)

Just who appoints it and who are the actual members of this so called "Renumeration Tribunal" ? the answer to both wouldn't be our "pollies" by any chance would it? and am I correct that there is an automatic mechanism in place for it flow on to all the State Govt Politicians
Don Gamble - 2, December, 2011 (12:19)

Just who appoints it and who are the actual members of this so called "Renumeration Tribunal" ? the answer to both wouldn't be our "pollies" by any chance would it? and am I correct that there is an automatic mechanism in place for it flow on to all the State Govt Politicians
Kate - 2, December, 2011 (12:09)

The entitlements & gold passs scheme should be stopped immediately if they are getting these hefty pay rises. I worked for the SA government for 27 years & got no recognition for my service. I did a job just like everyone else, and when I retired that was the end.
Rex - 2, December, 2011 (11:59)

Do any of you own shares? If so ,do you read the company reports? There you will see that the CEOs earn much more than our Prime Minister.Many are paid in the millions of dollars plus incentives such as rites to purchase shares at a discount.Surely our country's CEO (our Prime Minister)should be paid a salary that is appropriate for the job.I am sure that our PM works just as hard as company CEOs How many of you would be able to or want to do the work and hours that she does. I am a swinging votes with no connection to a political party. Also I do not agree with the salary paid to many company directors.
Dorothy Crouch - 2, December, 2011 (11:40)

This is absolutely immoral, unwarrented, undeserved, unearned. How dare they take away from everyone else and then give that saving to themselves. Get rid of them quickly before we become the lauging stock of the world that is of course if we aren'talready
Rod Fountain - 2, December, 2011 (11:04)

You wouldnt mind if we were getting value for money . Recent decisions have all been made by a select few on the front bench in hand with Juliar .The caucus or back benchers just sit there nodding their heads and calliong shame .They then ask some totally stupid question about something they should have full knowledge of the answer .They never answer letters and all they seem to do is read childrens books to ubnlikely schoolkids purely to get their photo on TV or in the paper
Our local member for Robertson is a prime example and as for the member for Dobell ,then he should be paying to be in the party
Robyn - 2, December, 2011 (10:53)

WEG,

Do you think Tony Abbott's woeful performance as Opposition Leader is worth $333K per annum?

Your second sentence at (10:15) is a sweeping statement. ("We all know..." Do we?) in which you are expressing your own bias using some extreme language such as "coalition with extreme groups"? Who are they? Surely you are not talking about the 1 Green and 3 independents, are you? The Australia I live in does not feel wrecked at all!
Old woman of the north - 2, December, 2011 (10:42)

For those who keep insisting that the rich do not pay enough tax.

Check out the Australian Tax Office site for their graph of the real situation.
Neal M - 2, December, 2011 (10:37)

Julia should lead by example and take a pay cut, not a rise, then let her cope the way she is pressuring the public to cope, she should stand back for a minute and see what she is doing to this once beautiful country
Helen - 2, December, 2011 (10:28)

This is rediculous (contd 3)- I think our PM more than puts in the hrs & dedication. There is no appreciation there at all but time will prove the doubters wrong in my opinion. I have always held this belief (as a non member of any party)...
Rita Frederiks - 2, December, 2011 (10:27)

We have no leaders in this country ,I was taught at school that a leader leads by example.Not in this country they dont!
As far as I'm concerned there should be a mximum wage as well as a minimum for everybody if one is a true leader being able to lead is a privilege, and the PERKS should be the gratification of knowing one is doing good for the whole of the nation. When are you pollies going to listen to the people.
Helen - 2, December, 2011 (10:25)

Contd -Circumstances can make things difficult & I understand that, but really would any of you like to be a Polly? I wouldn't. Politics is really quite an awful game to be part of. Unfortunately we need them, like them or not.

The only profession that would be worse, would be royalty & one is born into that. Pollies always enter with the best intentions. If they are too soft they are eaten up & spat out by the people & the parties. If they stand their ground for what they believe in, they are villified.
Helen - 2, December, 2011 (10:23)

I agree with Robyn

I heard it said this morning that they have no say. It does happen at this time each year regardless of who seems to be in power.

I voted for Howard & can still remembr how everyone screemed in the same way.

I know the pensioners don't get this sort of pay rise but there have been four from the Gillard Gov this year & bonuses as well. We only got a bonus before an election under Lib and it was $1000. We had to wait 4 yrs to get it.

There will always be the have's & have nots. I have been in both positions so do know how it feels. Our personal position has been all our own doing as we had to pay 100% of our super during our working lives.
Judith Clark - 2, December, 2011 (10:17)

I'm sorry I also forgot about the age pensioner as well are you's going to give them a fair rise as well befor xmas.I know as my mum stuggle as well to day to day.Come on be fair we are Australians you know you dam,dam.dam politicians.I'm only just 50 ,hubby works so we live off 1 wage pay rent,all our bills & live off the rest.With a 10yr old daughter still at school.
WEG - 2, December, 2011 (10:15)

When Seniors perceive they’re not getting value for money then it’s quite appropriate for them to link performance back to remuneration.

We all know the performance of the current government, mainly due to the coalition with some extreme groups, has wrecked this country.
Sadie - 2, December, 2011 (10:08)

The Remuneration Tribunal needs to have a good hard look at itself. They surely must know that people in the community are hurting and it is totally unreasonable to give such a HUGE rise when ordinary Australians are battling to make ends meet in the current climate. It seems inconceivable that only days after the Treasurer announced all the cuts that this could happen.
Fiona - 2, December, 2011 (10:06)

Talk about "Let them eat cake" Nothing changes over the centuries! This latest payrise of 28% is a disgrace, what happened to the 3% the workers have to fight to get? Sadly it doesn't matter which party is in government, they'd still accept the increase. Just a thought could the politicians en mass refuse the increase???
Cones - 2, December, 2011 (9:53)

The increase in the remuneration for the politicians shows how out of touch our pollies are with the Australian people. They’re behaving as if they’re the CEO of Qantas.
For once Abbott and Gillard seem to agree, which proves they don’t always have to bicker over everything. (Abbott’s salary increase is rumoured to be more than Gillard’s. Just rewards for being negative?)
I’m now looking for an “independent remuneration tribunal” to increase my wages by a multiple of the CPI.
Robyn - 2, December, 2011 (9:33)

Those who are blaming the Labor Govt and are saying "bring on the election" are being irrational. This pay increase was awarded by an independent body to ALL politicians and an election will not change anything regarding their pay and lurks and perks. Admit it - you just hate the present government! Fair enough, it feels good to vent when hating a govt but it really is not fair to blame them for this pay rise. Do you really think there would be no pay rise if Tony Abbott and his mob were running the show?
Jim Smith - 2, December, 2011 (9:24)

Totally and utterly disgusting, as an aged pensioner having to do part time work to survive and my wife having to work part time because she is under the pension age, these politicians get everything they ask for and then expect more like this pay rise when every other person in the country has to battle to survive. Another Great Example by the leaders GREED and more GREED.
David W - 2, December, 2011 (9:14)

We're told to pull our belt in a lot tighter while they let there's out another two notches. It's no leading by example. Do what I say, not what I do is the message our politicians are sending.
James E - 2, December, 2011 (9:11)

Are you saying that there should be an expectation that the pollies will act in accordance with a moral code appropriate to the conduct of an ethical individual? Come,come now.
Robyn - 2, December, 2011 (9:09)

WEG:

Regarding Kay's 2nd paragraph to you at 8:44:

You did accuse a number of us unjustly and judgementally. Now that the proof is in the pudding I wonder if you are willing to apologise?
John - 2, December, 2011 (9:02)

Has it occurred to these greedy pollies that the INCREASE alone will pay my pension for 15 Years!!
Or 15 pensioners for 1 year.

Angry
John
Judith Clark - 2, December, 2011 (8:55)

A dam nice xams present they gave themself's, a good pat on the back for a job well done---"NOT".What about the working Australians are you's going to give them a fair rise to before xmas as well? I have no time for any of you's.
We all stuggle,but you's don't have too!!
Lorikeet - 2, December, 2011 (8:54)

I am not a Liberal supporter, but I agree with WEG's comments on both state and federal debt.

Wayne Swan wouldn't run a budget surplus, even if he was an expert at chook raffles. He is highly adept at running our nation's economy into the ground, after many years of excellent training.
Trevor - 2, December, 2011 (8:53)

Con't of above. our pensions are indexed to the CPI whilst all other pensions are paid at a greater rate thereby deyning us the right to have a fair go,a back benchers pay rise of $40.000 is almost double what I reecive ($23.000) I would be better off being a drop kick and bludge off centrelink. AM I MAD YOU BET.take a look at our "fair Go" campaign on the internet which by the way is totally being ignored by those in Canberra Roll on election time, for I am only 1 of thousands who fell the same way, remember we do have extended families who are fed up at how we are being treated
Ken O'Connell - 2, December, 2011 (8:50)

Politicians - they act like spoilt brats, back stab, lie and do nothing for their constituents - none of them are any good and they get a big fat payrise. Doesn't Parliament have to APPROVE of those big fat payrises? I bet it will. Feather your own nests boys and girls..wankas
Trevor - 2, December, 2011 (8:44)

I am Totally disgusted at the gall the bloody pollies have given themselves a pay rise.I served over 20 yrs in the army including service overseaes (just like some 100 odd thousand others did) we had to pay into out DFRDB Comsuper at a rate determined by our pay at that time,governments of all persusasions politely helped themselves to our pensions and have never repaid it to us,another disgrace is that if you took a lump sum advance for bridging finance to buy your 1st home your pension was reduced to cover repayment BUT when you had fully repaid it (over some 20 plus years) your pension did not revert to your full entitlement, the lousy mongrels are still taking it out and will do so until the day we die.
Kay Kelly - 2, December, 2011 (8:44)

WEG

I agree completely with your blogs at 7:38 and 7:49. Labor governments do not have a record of good money management! Under Howard, the previous Labor government's debt was paid down and we were in surplus after 10 years. In comes Rudd - money being splashed and wasted everywhere - only 4 years later we are in dire straights again! Roll on the election! I just hope we have another Coalition government capable of managing money like the previous one.

And another observation - just like I said in an earlier blog, if the blog topic appeals, the members will provide their comments. A paucity of bloggers on some topics has nothing to do with the robust cut and thrust that sometimes takes place between the bloggers!!
Sue Do-Nim - 2, December, 2011 (8:44)

Frances:
You pay more peanuts, you get bigger monkeys…Look at some CEO 's salaries!

Just briefly tell me how you justify someone like Peter Slipper our new Speaker “earning” $315,000 p.a.?

The bloke turned his back on constituents, he falls asleep in the House and has been forced on numerous occasions to repay expenses that he’s wrongfully and wilfully claimed.
susan - 2, December, 2011 (8:39)

You have got to be kidding!! It is totally inappropriate - they are all the same with their snouts in the trough! Let's see who has the gumption to decline their payrise and donate it to charity.
Marg C - 2, December, 2011 (8:31)

I think the timing is disgusting. They have just announced austerity measures to bring the budget back into surplus and now they give themselves bonuses. Just another perk for the pollies not to mention the ones they get when they leave i.e. free air travel.

How about giving a pay rise of 20-30% to people on pensions and disability support.
Frances - 2, December, 2011 (8:22)

If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Most politicians work hard and work dreadful hours not just in the house but in their constituency. The official residence of the Prime Minister is in dire need of repairs because it would not hav elooked good to spend the money on the Lodge - consequently it is going to cost more to fix. Our leaders (of whatever persuasion) deserve decent pay.vzjq5p
Sue Do-Nim - 2, December, 2011 (8:22)

Mr.B.Barry:
Absolutely correct.

Other entities that wish to use the Tribunal to determine wage/salary increases have to make SUBMISSIONS.

Does this mean that parliamentarians have submitted their own request for higher salaries or, are their salary packages reviewed automatically?

Surely a submission would have to set out justifications for a wage rise eg. increased work load, less staff, cost of living rises etc.

How can the tribunal justify a 20-30 % increase…It doesn’t make sense.
Greg CADWALLADER - 2, December, 2011 (8:15)

I provided Mr Campbell Newman, contender for the seat of Ashgrove in the upcoming State election, with irrefutable evidence that the Commonwealth Bank is defrauding Queensland's citizens. And I supplied him with irrefutable evidence that the Australian Government was actually giving the Commonwealth Bank the green light to continue defrauding Queensland's citizens while prosecuting Target for committing precisely the same despicable offence. What is Mr Newman doing with the information I gave him? Absolutely nothing. He is concerned only that the Commonwealth Bank maintains its multi-billion dollar profit. The man who wants to become Queensland's next Premier is afraid to ruffle feathers. He's sitting on his hands while the Commonwealth Bank defrauds an unknown number of Queensland citizens.
Mr B Barry - 2, December, 2011 (8:01)

Lets get one thing straight. The Independent Remuneration Tribunal is not independent. The Fat Cat and the board running this department are government appointees. They are beholden to the government of the day and will take instructions from them as to what they should recommend for pay increases and any other benefits.

Governments only act as fools when it comes to running the country. Its a different matter when it comes to lining their own pockets. There is no way they are going to allow some faceless individuals the right to tell them what they will be paid.
Anyone who believes differently is still at the bottom of the garden looking for fairies.
WEG - 2, December, 2011 (7:49)

...and don't forget the Queenland State Labor Government have accumulated a public debt of $80B. It all has to be paid back. Labor Government call themselves good finacial managers. I wonder what a bad one looks like?
WEG - 2, December, 2011 (7:38)

Old woman of the north - 2, December, 2011 (7:14)

The $37b deficit is just this financial year's projected debt. Wayne Swan & Penny Wong just increased the debt projection for this year from $22.5B - $37B to fudge his promise to bring the budget to a $1B positive in 2013.

You need to add this $37B to the accumulated debt. That will take us to $130B in accumulative debt. We will need to pay a lot more than $5B a year to service this debt.

Just 4 years ago we did not have public debt. We have ventured to a place under this Labor Coalition where no Australian has ever been, and NO it's not Tony Abbot's fault.
Sydneysider - 2, December, 2011 (7:35)

Maybe if we pay the Prime Minister a better wage, we might attract more competent and better calibre of person into this position. Cut out all the perks they get, we are going broke just paying out retired pollies lurks and perks until the day they die!!( they all seem to live long lives, sending the rest of us to an early grave!!!) This Government is absolutely incompetent in every area of government, talk about waste of money, I have never seen such a bunch of losers in government before..... bring on the next election.
Helen - 2, December, 2011 (7:23)

Did anyone notice that this was one time when Abbott was in agreement! No objections at all from anyone at all!

I would love a breakdown of exactly what their wages cover before being too judgmental.

I don't agree that former Polies still get lot's of perks & freebies after leaving as well as giant payout figures.

Like in any industry once retired that should be it & not that we pay for them for the rest of their lives with staff, travel etc.

To be fair we can't compare the rate with O/S because in many of those C/Trys, the whole wage structure is lower. The wages here in comparison are quite high. It also costs us more here to buy most things...
Joy Wilson - 2, December, 2011 (7:19)

Inappropriate, inconsiderate and immoral.It is sad that none of our 'political leaders' have suggested that their pay rise be deferred or redirected to the needy.
Jane Fisher - 2, December, 2011 (7:16)

Absolute disgrace, while most of the country is struggling they get a pay rise. This is the worst government we have seen for a long time.Let's have another election and get rid of these incompetent fools, they have wasted so much money on trying to buy votes.
Old woman of the north - 2, December, 2011 (7:14)

Having wasted billions on the various schemes that now have Australia in $37 billion deficit, politicians now give themselves (how much do you think their Wages Tribunal members are paid?) another pay rise.
It is now costing $5 billion a year, just to pay the interest on borrowings and this debt will continue leaching money from our funds.

When Australia was without debt the government was returning that money to the taxpayers but many seem to have resented this, inexplicably.

Governments have no business regulating private enterprise as this is where wealth is generated - governments do NOT make money, it comes from taxpayers and taxes on businesses, royalties etc. So, taxpayers are the ones who pay for all the public servants who no longer seem to see that they are.
Tony - 2, December, 2011 (7:14)

Would like to see the 'bottom line' we all keep hearing about - i.e. what will the nett gain be after all the 'lurks and perks' have supposedly been lost - before finalising my view on the proposals.

HOWEVER - how about a productivity element to reflect performance in pollies pay packages?

Perhaps reducing the base pay by twice the sum of the percentage unemployed and the Gross Public Dept as a percentage of GDP, would fit the bill?

For example if unemployment was at 8% and debt/GDP = 7% then base salaries to be reduced by 2(7+8)% = 30%.

In this 'model' (there - I've succumbed to the modern idiom!) when unemployment and national debt came down, then pollies would be rewarded.

Just a thought.
Eliza - 2, December, 2011 (6:52)

The Prime Minister has taken so much from the ordinary people, and now given to the rich! So many ordinary people are struggling to make ends meet, each and every week. This is the worst government Australia has ever had, for ripping funds (taxes, increased energy bills, etc) from the people and then madly trying to convince people how good a job she has done!!!! As if she is worth such a massive increase.
John Thompson - 2, December, 2011 (6:50)

Greed is a common human failure. Our politicans are not immune. If they were really fair dinkum why did they not take away the Gold Card for past, present and future MPs.
Bob B - 2, December, 2011 (6:46)

Don't forget they are being paid to forego entitlements when, in the case of the gold card for travel, it applies to new from now pollies only. In other words those there today will have the benefit of both the gold card and the money for it as well. Very poor decision and plainly transparent. What other entitlements are being double dipped? A costed list of entitlements would be a good start.
Heather C-D - 2, December, 2011 (6:45)

National Seniors

I hope you are going to forward these comments to EVERY politician in Canberra.

They are so out of touch with reality that they wouldn't know what it was like to survive on the smell of a dirty oil rag let alone an "average income".

This has the worst Government for the Australian people in terms of hitting them in their hip pockets at every turn while doing nothing but add taxes to our already bloated over-taxed community.

More and more, with everyday expenses going up, I feel like I'm living in a 3rd world country ... and I own my own home and I cook just about everything from scratch and I live simply, rarely eat out etc etc... I don't know what else I can do.
Louise Cashell - 2, December, 2011 (6:44)

I think it is completely inappropriate and in fact an insult to the Australian people. Both sides of government are saying daily that we must tighten our belts and think of each other during these hard economic times. However they are all happy to accept not only pay increases but significant pay increases. I would vote for the politician who took the high ground and refused the increase. Not that this will ever happen.
I also agree with the comment that those of us on Disability Support Pension are being treated as if we don't want to work. I can barely keep food on the table and pay my bills. Any "luxuries" such as clothes are unaffordable. An utter disgrace.
MargoJune - 2, December, 2011 (6:43)

What a disgrace - and, as usual, they hide behind the "independant tribunal" label. how independant is the tribunal? What is the criteria for an increase? Is there ever a decrease? $80,000 additional per annum? We'd love to have just $80,000 total - or even half that. More than the US President, or UK PM? What a joke. Seems like they need a reality check.
Chris M - 2, December, 2011 (6:42)

Timing is bad , very bad.
Take with one hand and keep it for yourself.
Re Gillards Wage bigger than Obama and Cameron , I doubt it ( a bit of a Porky ).How many perks do you think they get !!!!!
Heather C-D - 2, December, 2011 (6:36)

Disgusting,
Despicable,
Unwarranted
Undeserved
Inappropriate
Inconsiderate
Immoral
What a joke! While the pensioner's "pay" packet is barely enough to buy the bare necessities and while nurses and police have to fight for every cent the "Independant Tribunal" awards a hefty 30% payrise to the pollies on the pretext of rolling in some of their "entitlements" to their already overstuffed pay packet.

Rolling in entitlements seest EVERYONE benefiting from extra $$ whether or not they acually used those entitlements prior to the payrise.And if anyone thinks politicians work harder than any other worker out there, they are wrong.

Politicians are sucking the life out of ordinary Aussies while congratulating themselves on their strategic moves to outsmart/outwit political opponents and then slap themselves on the back with a massive payrise, the likes of which %-wise have been denied to ordinary workers for years.

When will anyone in politics have the guts to say no, it's not appropriate! Roll on next election!
Lorikeet - 2, December, 2011 (6:32)

I think Sammi is right. I would like a full list of the lost lurks and perks, complete with a dollar value for each.
Lorikeet - 2, December, 2011 (6:30)

I think we should remember that Disability Support Pensioners are increasingly being lumped in with the unemployed, and the way they are now treated by the Australian Taxation Office bears witness to this. Lots of DSP recipients are also being cut off and dumped on the dole.

A week ago, we were told that Aged Care nurses would be included with Community Care workers to receive a 20% pay increase over the next 6 years. While this wouldn't even keep up with the real rate of inflation, I have now been advised by the Australian Nursing Federation that the Aged Care nurses will get nothing!

Some people from the DLP used to have at least some respect for Wayne Swan, but even he was angrily crossed off their list quite a while back.
Radio Rod - Age Pensioner - 2, December, 2011 (6:19)

Given the responsibility and wide reaching decision making required of a truly representative politician, and particularly the role of the Prime Minister, the salaries they are paid just simply do not compare to the remuneration paid to executives who run ONE company.
It would be good if once and for all this mystery independent Tribunal had a good review and put its cards on the table to be reshuffled, so a good and proper foundation be put in place for parliamentary remuneration in all respects.
Meanwhile the pollies need to brush up on their mouthings and their timing, and the Tribunal should choose a better calendar date for reviews.
Funny how all the things that are cut back were so important when they were first put in place! Life wasn't meant to be easy/
peter hockey - 2, December, 2011 (6:17)

totally unacepptable wayne swan is cutting cost people are struggling in this land of plenty and a pay rise of this magnitude is totally wrong
54777w
Sammi Reindl - 2, December, 2011 (6:09)

Interesting how we react. I agree the timing is very silly of the announcment,but from what I read it says it is set to give not has given or been accepted.
The devil must be in the detail, I for one would like to see the gold card phased out, how many of them are there and who has them?
What other allowences will be removed ect.
Also good to remember what this monorty government has done, increased pensions, raised the income before it has to be taxed. Over all for a minorty government at a time of GFC I'm impressed how well the country is running. But let us not let a few facts get in the way of that universal game of pollie bashing.
Tony - 2, December, 2011 (5:47)

It is beyond belief that they should be awarded such large payrises immediately after announcing cuts to public sector and education spending. Smart move setting up the remuneration tribunal, now they can just take the pay rise and say "we didn't ask for this pay rise, the tribunal has awarded it to us". Their arrogance is disgusting.
Jan Ketcher - 2, December, 2011 (5:23)

I am speechless!
Bev - 2, December, 2011 (4:53)

Totally inappropriate and unfair
Trevor Ridgway - 2, December, 2011 (3:50)

Disgusting !

Bad timing !

Very greedy !

Unjustifiable. !
Tina F - 2, December, 2011 (1:51)

It is outrageous when age pensioners are struggling to make ends meet.
I dispute the argument that if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. We are paying heaps of gold plated peanuts and still get monkeys.

With the rise in pay, perhaps our greedy politicians could consider pooling it back into buying back our utilities and not selling us out to foreigners or instead of feathering their own nests they could put the extra money they get into a charitable organisation to help the poor.
Pollies do not need any extra money. They should be doing an honest job because they care and not for the lurks and perks they can get.
Sue Do-Nim - 1, December, 2011 (23:19)

jane Pullenvale:
My dear……a reasonable attempt at “possum stirring”..but sadly for you the highly experienced contributors to this Blog can smell a bait a mile away.

If you wish to have a bit of a giggle playing Devil’s Advocate fair enough, but at least try and be a little less transparent.
Sharon Butcher - 1, December, 2011 (22:55)

Never mind the pollies getting a pay rise... what about the pensioners of this country.. they're the ones who helped build this country with hard work, sweat and tears.. surely they deserve a hell of a lot more than the pittnace they get each week... wouldn't mind so much if the pollies deserved it, but I've seen kindergarten kids with more brains and common sense..
Taj - 1, December, 2011 (22:50)

I cannot believe that Jane pullenvale could write what she has! She really needs to come out from under the cabbage plant, or not be an ostrich!
How is it that the present Govt. can bring the country financially to its knees and then take such a pay rise - for the redhead to take more salary than the USA president is incredible. It's amazing how some people think.
Larry Bailey - 1, December, 2011 (22:47)

Is anyone really surprised, they act worse than little kids, at best pollies the world over are cheats and liars, if they are not kissing abbies they are stealing their lollipops, if they were on fire I would not urinate on them, it would be a waste of good urine
Paul RUYS - 1, December, 2011 (22:15)

You would not mind so much if they were doing a good job.
This must be the worst gov in living memory.
Andy S - 1, December, 2011 (22:07)

I would have no problem if politicians were remunerated according to their performance and then judged by an independant tribunal!!
I doubt many would see any rise as they are incompetent and many would not survive in the business world. I also note that Tony Abbot has used his normal approach by saying 'No"
Bob Brown and his Green Team don't approve of it..but are taking it anyway.
Are they not lucky that we don't rise up as a Nation and reject this and all the other rubbish they generate.
Time for an election I think.
Col H - 1, December, 2011 (21:53)

Those LNP politicans in Qld should be docked a days pay for not bothering to even put in an appearance in the Parliament. And they claim they are read to govern. What a joke they are.
c h walker - 1, December, 2011 (21:20)

I'm sick of paying there wages. If they really want value for money then they should work for it. They don't deserve a rise. If anything sack our so called government.
Geoff Rich - 1, December, 2011 (21:14)

Some may not be seething but I am. A pay rise of this magnitude and then to "blame" it on an independant tribunal is hypocracy at its finest.
But take it a step further and look what effect this has on politicians' superannuation. Not, I believe, based on the ups and downs of the super funds???
This Government (including Greens), and the LNP before it, have refused outright to contemplate fair indexation of military pensions (as for Centrelink and Service pensions) and contemptuously leave those who do the dirty work out in the cold while those pillars of society (the pollies) are guaranteed a carefree retirement after a couple of terms in office.
Call me cynical but, as a military pension recipient, I'm as angry as hell.
PS: don't get me started on the greed of big company CEO's.
jane Pullenvale - 1, December, 2011 (20:52)

I'm not seething, not one tiny bubble of seethe. Please stop using these inflammatory terms National Seniors, it doesn't help with informed debate, it just brings out the usual suspects, full of bitterness and bile.
jane Pullenvale - 1, December, 2011 (20:50)

Of course it is justified. They are underpaid for the thankless job they do, and are actually paid less than a middle rank public servant, or about one quarter of your dentist's post-accountant fiddling remuneration.
If you don't like it, stand for preselection, get elected, and change the independent tribunal so that once again politicians can set their own pay rises, which they cannot do at present.
Oh for goodness sake, let's stop this petty envy and downright nastiness.
WEG - 1, December, 2011 (20:41)

Most of the Parliamentary payroll remunerates Union hacks who have never had a real job in their life. If it’s anything like the NSW disposed Labor State Govn, the majority resigned before the election for a variety of reasons, fraud, theft, one convicted paedophile, corruption, secret commissions, ‘meetings’ at brothels, and still more to be uncovered as the ICAC investigations continue.

We give our parliamentarians the responsibility of running a country. They protect their own with a vengeance (ie the Health scandal). Yet we increase their remuneration at a time when they’re failed Australians miserably. Every policy released is just another failure.

No wonder 72% of the population know things are bad. It’s worse than bad. They’re mad as hell and they’re not going to take it anymore.
Bob B - 1, December, 2011 (19:17)

I value my time. I do a lot of volunteer work. My price for CEO's and Pollies $1,000.00 a minute. Peter Slipper, $80,000.00 down payment then $1,000.00 a minute. For the rest of us, especially those in genuine need, just a big smile is more than enough.
Bob B - 1, December, 2011 (19:08)

This is the second time in a row that a pollies pay increase has been announced immediately on the back of hugh imposts on taxpayers. The more this happens the more I believe they are just about themselves. Any good for the country is circumstantial trying to make themselves look good. I know they do some good but this sort of greed takes the cake.

On the news tonight it was said on the pollies pay rise article that the 'gold card' might go for 'new' pollies. Might go when its an inherent element in the equation for this rise so it stops now!!! They are doing this just because they can just like company CEOs etc.
WEG - 1, December, 2011 (18:47)

Here’s a web site for those ‘virtual NSA’ drinkers that want to relax at the end of the week.

http://www.thebottleofplonk.com/archives/657

Note that the number of taxes listed have increased somewhat since the site opened in Oct 2010, ie Carbon Tax, Mining Tax, and many others.
rmcn - 1, December, 2011 (18:36)

Didn't have a Remuneration Tribunal where I used to work. More's the pity!!!! But actually in difficult financial times when others are asked to tighten their belts the MPs get a gigantic increase. I think its utterly appalling. And at the very same time my local newspaper is asking me to donate food for the thousands in Brisbane that are below the poverty line.
WEG - 1, December, 2011 (17:32)

Go Sue - I just love the message you sent to Wayne Swan. He's got a thick hide though.
Sue Do-Nim - 1, December, 2011 (17:23)

How convenient that an “ independent umpire”, the Remuneration Tribunal , has granted these obscene salary increases to our pollies.

The tribunal’s recommendations are automatically accepted so there can be no parliamentary debate by M.P.’s about their pay increases.

If the pollies had to justify to the electorate their whopping great salaries increase, they couldn’t...No way!

Now they just take the money and say the decision wasn’t their own.

And you Mr. Swan, who came out two days ago to solemnly announce public sector and education cost cuttings, take that smug supercilious grin off your face. Have some b.lls and give your increase to charity.
Robyn - 1, December, 2011 (17:21)

Good to have all those figures Kay, thanks. It does give clearer perspective.
Kay Kelly - 1, December, 2011 (16:59)

Robyn

If you can believe the Courier Mail, Julia Gillard will get $473K; Wayne Swan $369K; Tony Abbott $333K; Julie Bishop $283.5K and Peter Slipper $315K.

Barack Obama gets $388K; Nicolas Sarkozy (France) $293K; Stephen Harper (Canada) $288K; Angela Merkel (Germany) $275K; Yoshihiko Noda (Japan) $266K and David Cameron (UK) $206K (all figures rounded).

Kind of puts our Australian pollies' salaries in perspective, doesn't it?
Eve - 1, December, 2011 (16:49)

I think all the pollies should have the pay rise taken back and that money be put to use for pensioners and low income earners in aust,
Politicians choose to be away from their families ect when they take on the job and should not get extra for allowances or huge payrises for it they get travel expenses as it is Julia should refuse to take hers if she wants to win favor with Australians
Robyn - 1, December, 2011 (16:41)

I think the more money politicians earn, the more out of touch they get with what life is like for the majority of us. $450,000 pa is too much! Wonder what the rest get. What does Abbott now get? One of my local MP's (Janelle Saffin) works really hard. The other one (Justine Elliot) appears to do very little - nobody ever sees her.
Lorikeet - 1, December, 2011 (16:32)

I am also concerned about the effects the budget cuts will have on ordinary families trying to raise children, while high household bills keep arriving and new taxes are brought in nearly every other week.

I think that in future all politicians' pay rises should be contingent upon reducing foreign debt i.e.

No reductions = no more pay rises!
Lorikeet - 1, December, 2011 (16:27)

I heard that Julia Gillard's salary had increased to $470,000.

Not only does the government need to cap the payouts to CEOs, they need to reduce the PM's salary.

Most politicians work 18 hours a day, 6 or 7 days a week, and are constantly abused by the general public, so I don't really begrudge the rest of them a decent rate of pay. They are also separated from their spouses and children for most of the year, with many relationship breakdowns occurring.

This announcement has come hard on the heels of Heather Ridout speaking at the National Press Club. She seemed to think that Australians are low on productivity and high on pay, which is completely inaccurate.

If things were so hunky dory, why would we have 100,000 destitute people being fed by Foodbank each week in SE Queensland alone, up from 70,000 before the floods?
Kay Kelly - 1, December, 2011 (16:02)

Terrific timing! On practically the same day that the Treasurer announces budget cuts adversely affecting ordinary people, we hear that all the pollies are getting a big pay increase! What's worse, the new pay scales take PM Gillard's salary above that received by President Obama, and the PMs of France, Canada, Germany, Japan and the UK. She may have had a tough year, but this pay rise is over the top! And if this pay rise is in lieu of some of the pollies' allowances, it makes you realise how much these previously hidden perks are worth. And State MP salaries will follow suit! Shame on them all!
Bob B - 1, December, 2011 (15:48)

Until our politicians learn to behave themselves and not act like school children, I cannot support a rise. In fact they should be docked pay - money in the swear box type of thing. Debate is not hurling abuse at each other and scoring points from bar room brawling.

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Pollies' bonus has Aussies seething

Comments (439)

Lorikeet - 8, December, 2011 (14:06)

Bob B - 8, December, 2011 (14:00)

Son of Lorikeet - 8, December, 2011 (13:46)

Robyn - 8, December, 2011 (11:22)

Robyn - 8, December, 2011 (10:54)

Kay Kelly - 8, December, 2011 (10:49)

ETS - 8, December, 2011 (8:50)

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Bob B - 8, December, 2011 (8:27)

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WEG - 8, December, 2011 (7:05)

Kay Kelly - 8, December, 2011 (6:29)

Sue Do-Nim - 7, December, 2011 (22:13)

Lorikeet - 7, December, 2011 (20:55)

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